From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp10.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id aJLrI8O+MGSjYwEASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 03:09:23 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp10.migadu.com with LMTPS id KFoKI8O+MGQrTwAAG6o9tA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 08 Apr 2023 03:09:23 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 148F832461 for ; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 03:09:23 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pkx4b-00088T-5k; Fri, 07 Apr 2023 21:08:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pkx4Z-00088D-NR for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Apr 2023 21:08:55 -0400 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pkx4X-0006rW-M0 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 07 Apr 2023 21:08:55 -0400 Received: from fews2.riseup.net (fews2-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.84]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mail.riseup.net", Issuer "R3" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4PtcZC5tQhzDqPl; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 01:08:51 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1680916132; bh=L/vyvRnyCP5OcXXF0BKJ7Mv+LfC4qcwNQxYIrwhueoQ=; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to:From; b=rrf8idqj7mLopBawzI/tcuCLjZUVs3yTnXKALTeEtco0Vbj8i/xAf5dTpsx+NLFy/ XNDVFarvt9NWJ0RSFvo2tp/8/kYH8lQFaYMjrPzzHWOfbRZTMOWyAMFxIiVtTsF43P QdZJiIKZo4IY12/IWsBFatQIEAHY9KUj1K54AvwY= X-Riseup-User-ID: 7A2D17179AFB45DC25445325A7438E1B3F8F035ADE99CBC5CCB2C765317C9B8D Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews2.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4PtcZC0P1Pz1yV4; Sat, 8 Apr 2023 01:08:50 +0000 (UTC) References: <543c3687-43c5-02d9-cc3a-8e62435ffd95@telenet.be> <86ile9e8dn.fsf@gmail.com> From: Csepp To: Attila Lendvai Cc: Simon Tournier , Maxime Devos , Vijaya Anand , pukkamustard , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: [GSoC 23] distributed substitutes, cost of storage Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2023 02:46:44 +0200 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <87355bkwo2.fsf@riseup.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Received-SPF: pass client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=raingloom@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_score: 0.0 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (0.0 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=1.886, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.922, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1680916163; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=aEyZLOXICAOZJUveB0pDkrs5Js/1pLV0EXm1v38ov2acbsq52ew/jFLx9Cj6Hz6VbjBNq1 XAdihDpqn5GXsT678LikLrWRKtqySv0wloGydhjjG+jjD5mRsR1prmTrYq+2pFk1brm6yo RQTq31acdQ7ka6X23K7BTY/ITkiI0+XuiRAtScT+2MLDr90D6y621ha870LDRngr0bNZj3 kLgxUp6Xx0oYFc1zclHuTb2D4Nakn/LZYz7LdJdFCUz/6z0Vuzp4yaN43hS+L3mlVkWjX2 mP7XPBLNi9UIUFI+uCEXYy30+xFrYa9dXcC7+uj6II635h3zjooI9csY4goZ9Q== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=rrf8idqj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1680916163; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=ZGLpVpKN3cRC6HtXhV36fF8j7hwJd93J4D6fEh7KgQI=; b=Q6GLyQABY8b+sD95Kk9ko37VU6HQc06tEcFOU9HKLfQ4ZUy957jj8e/RJevDb09f3Ew3WB S5zxiVSN6n/lC/7+TwW/FVy9ASGibrYx+DuhOPoYqqKSV+z2Q+dCYxuNm3h/b9xzxjFZsa 9Qi0i4vTfLlWM6I5Tf+75ooPfuyGDAxU2I4+TqloWczCFx+ugLDj+kjchFytwCjUkre8Iu fksq3KtdUYnpYFseZ+QN52YH1Pt8VEOfTW6qKj2mKLdIL2GsgTO3SFxAli8okyKj2cEHUF B8z0IVoSYrTw9PuGq7AUxhcd2K6ey1+nAtKcrB9r6ht6Gs0wqRvaKoAzV4gIkQ== Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=riseup.net header.s=squak header.b=rrf8idqj; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=riseup.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -10.30 X-Spam-Score: -10.30 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 148F832461 X-TUID: J6f6aPscmVXW Attila Lendvai writes: >> Could you be provide some details for helping my curiosity? > > > this page also has a much shorter whitepaper: > > https://www.ethswarm.org/why > > it started out as a storage layer for Ethereum, and as such one of its > main task is to store the blockchain data, but it's not limited to > that. there's nothing special about the blockchain data from this > perspective, and reflecting that, the Swarm project is not under the > Ethereum umbrella anymore. Haven't read the Swarm thing, going more off of the general vibe of these cryptocurrency related projects that keep popping up: Using some kind of (optional) web of trust for clients makes more sense to me than making people pay with cryptocurrencies. I should be able to set up two computers on a LAN in the middle of nowhere without having to care about some blockchain's global consistency. NDN can do this right and has been able to for a while. Personally, I would try that and other established non-ponzi technologies first for distributed substitutes. Not being "permissionless" should not be considered a must have. I have some more thoughts about this but I really should be sleeping. I already spent way too much redrafting this email.