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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1654113581; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=n0Xqb6PgeC0HoZHo7A6h5SGIMhg7XrHwjZgbCxbxXUA=; b=GeCBcRWaLho1MD13IMmWPeUFf2wl4p5uUQgQDjHMH8Yvk1e86ODjBeeRvD96wxrgT5Vfsf Wu4ehyatDT53udF769eLiKcMCupfOp4UYLyMkvOEOLCZiUiAguglOpcDfMsYhJZeyngyk1 3VEtE96vCk4PyCCX1exd9DNMw+hv9QltvQOUowBecRU/jgaSJ4SxAB6CX5o9q4L6wL68dG WNZ5YIP0M6dD/OZ3CnJpWkZDGHw+eET2a/ysyw4lt0csuJJsNC0XmXxJ6I2O6y8Fzhy6zO qM4cbplW0aY79P2Hwo+p4N5mxf21o162BlfUhu7khWan84Kf/si34x1Q6C48rA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1654113581; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=sKnMFxxsjBSMJnsHl3SfSUtCcFjb9tqe8COWG8JIIQTxawr9Zu01c8hZ11kc6I5nPk8rKn sVjb5Q4EI3zJujd5beW2hDMUWf9yBYvbyMuku/1vvF+n+v7mhMAcT7KxCi5u0RJ2izw36f pkjVErMVSMEDeU7j8V2SJGPe2gj4g4yP5g2xZ47koTXwlTnb1AEgOn7y1i+G3F5l+Xdzq3 to5oVuuvjftvPYMk9rLfws5IFbpjsjzDKEa501f3uU9DxtnTYhfZ4Liz5635QDXdu0a+DW kTAyM0dso5xuDr641OvNePEje6kVVxVAwkDM6exCg0Ojd85sYWFPobQDuiNXvQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=cgNlRQqs; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.03 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=cgNlRQqs; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 74EA0440BD X-Spam-Score: -4.03 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: w3M6b8CPOu/D Hi, On Wed, 01 Jun 2022 at 18:21, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > The question boils down to: how can we maintain a general-purpose > package collection? I agree and I never said that we have to maintain packages EOL since 2 years. As I pointed, many packages of these set are not broken=E2=80=A6 yet. Any user of Guix, scientist or not, can be surprised that their perfectly working packages are suddenly removed without a period of grace. Yes, these packages could have been removed before today since they are EOL since 2 years. It does not change my concern. What is the emergency in the maintenance burden that we cannot publicly announce the purge and wait a grace* period? For the broken packages, I understand. I am sorry but I am still missing for the perfectly working packages. Again, I agree with the purge, I disagree with the process. *grace period: it could have been short as couple of weeks. > It=E2=80=99s great that you=E2=80=99re voicing the concerns of the scient= ific community. > At the end of the day though, someone has to maintain all this code. > We=E2=80=99re removing packages from Guix proper, letting interested users > either pin their software environment or maintain those packages in a > channel of their own. In the latter case, the maintenance burden is > transferred. My concern is mainly about the process, not the purge. As you can read in the Git log, I have removed many broken Python 2 packages. And as you can also read in the mailing list archive, I have been concerned by this topic and I tried to propose (many times) a plan for a smooth transition because package removals. Maybe I am wrong but I see a difference in a transition plan between collectively maintain all this code for 2 years and remove many working packages without a public announce. I agree with the purge and it is nice that it happens. But I am surprised by the abrupt process. A grace period could have smoothed the transition for the few interested users, if any. :-) Maybe my ideal world is wrong, but to me, the collective process would have somehow been on Guix side: patches, branch and CI, announce on guix-devel, announce on info-guix and publish a blog post (because the script is unique, awesome and really worth), then done. In my ideal world, we were at the announce on guix-devel step. Hence my surprise. > The transition can be difficult; surely, some user out there will > discover all of a sudden that their favorite package disappeared. As > engineers who support scientific users, you and I (and others) can help > smooth that by pasting package definitions that we know are still used > into Guix-Past or some other channels. It is a bit more than pasting; whatever. :-) It is really interesting: so much care about =E2=80=9Cguix environment=E2= =80=9D to avoid any breakage of any workflow vs a massive purge without even an announce on guix-devel: be aware, many Python 2 will be dropped on . Anyway. As I said, I am surprised. But the world is not exploding. :-) Come on, it is Python 2 EOL since 2 years! Even, I am very grateful that this boring janitor task of purging is almost done. Many thanks to Maxim for the hard and not fun work! The script and various tools around are really great materials exposing how Guix is powerful. Awesome and thanks! > In the end, it can have a good side effect: getting scientists aware of, > and ideally involved in, the maintenance of their own infrastructure. > Maybe you have an argument to recruit an new engineer on your team? :-) Too much optimism? :-) To be honest, I get two kind of feedback: 1. from scientists end-user, a) they do not have the packages they need when these packages are easily available elsewhere, b) many tiny annoyances which do not make daily usage smooth compared to others; 2. from =E2=80=9Csysadmin=E2=80=9D, Guix is not enough stable and not read= y for production. Both are not technical but are most about perception. I will not drift off topic. ;-) About =E2=80=9Cmy team=E2=80=9D, do you mean recruit myself? Even, I am pr= obably the only potential recruit in my complete Institute. ;-) Bah yeah optimism! I am surprised and surprised are often fun! :-) Cheers, simon