From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id KPx3NqLhNmKh1wAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:11:14 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id uNw3M6LhNmLPEgEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:11:14 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33DF91477B for ; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:11:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:46810 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nVqef-0007Jb-9j for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 04:11:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60934) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nVqeT-0007Iy-0U for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 04:11:01 -0400 Received: from mail-m974.mail.163.com ([123.126.97.4]:46491) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nVqeL-0001df-Qn for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 04:10:57 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=163.com; s=s110527; h=From:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version; bh=Vl9sQ ietACDGndZlg/f/4feEGo02yrqb06FY4rCI9Lo=; b=J+2wDoYcWzwezHYjZgUG5 p3IXnil8beKlZEvC86LwGcmWcgFt/V1XKhX7e0SKlct3N/jBAMQ8G1QhdSW6Lapf 86O8/lgQCjLzwWoWm26SfqLD22Q+aF0WV6wvbZ2T8rHQ+QsWqCjsxj22BnsE679H f5QC5UUkQIm67FniISOij8= Received: from asus-laptop (unknown [112.95.115.46]) by smtp4 (Coremail) with SMTP id HNxpCgD3WfWB4TZiDFU_HQ--.52184S2; Sun, 20 Mar 2022 16:10:42 +0800 (CST) References: User-agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 From: Zhu Zihao To: Ryan Prior Subject: Re: Guix as a system vs as an end-user dev tool (re: Building a software toolchain that works) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 16:04:00 +0800 In-reply-to: Message-ID: <86sfrdxcwy.fsf@163.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-CM-TRANSID: HNxpCgD3WfWB4TZiDFU_HQ--.52184S2 X-Coremail-Antispam: 1Uf129KBjvJXoWxGr48WrW3Wr1xCrWkur4fGrg_yoW5Wr4rpF WYgr1IyF4v9a109rnrAw4xZw13Zw4rGw43Jrn5J3y8Aa98AryIyFnrt34UZa4xGr4qyw45 XFW0vF40kan5ZaDanT9S1TB71UUUUUUqnTZGkaVYY2UrUUUUjbIjqfuFe4nvWSU5nxnvy2 9KBjDUYxBIdaVFxhVjvjDU0xZFpf9x07UdR6cUUUUU= X-Originating-IP: [112.95.115.46] X-CM-SenderInfo: pdoosuxxwbztlvw6il2tof0z/xtbBPQLJr2AY-Sh2XQAAsf Received-SPF: pass client-ip=123.126.97.4; envelope-from=all_but_last@163.com; helo=mail-m974.mail.163.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1647763874; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=Vl9sQietACDGndZlg/f/4feEGo02yrqb06FY4rCI9Lo=; b=EQ4EpOzjjR7Ntz4h4yaPJzrsa1rB1/pnvGM00L3m6iaceam7tFxRe19J2A0VUXIamnAPbA Q60+supwt7VAehuYNWbpzptpjUdVDGXidmKgWa6ozkzsstUAsve8Qqyisf+i/Pkz+SWikS HufAKQRuDrYSJUa0jqAJZNiK0XAAxjt+dD36m6LVCgMBITCtUql79DaAXvxmyJwUUZoLW9 qCl9zvYYYebqZ+BDhSTrMDuVbj+9Wy8yYoJ7IRu5jFTi7CbjNSdVAHP6WskkL/48fNwRm2 1wpyf1hsDhVutT+SLvT7YoBb/3aN2CkdMNt22+/bqV8dC8optq00hauRYu+EUw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1647763874; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=cSTJCLez1g8AN1dyja5aAbR594jaLh3QtQe2ZUjqBqN4YkWUwqp/VD6pv9TSSXHh9WyRvU plQ40Tb3a3gLFh+KHsGMPToPR0piKVxt3lShbQMjYnbF/PeGRCadzkJN56hTtZx87/Tl/I vtLRhLoJaEq2wjsAJdwLQhQxYBv3IzFLrfrGSgQiftLGapVD2/JKP9t7zCn/TKLhLu9Kbx zkqJkNa31vnNCOsB1nJXWhT2eRrfK2xL/CTjg36opczJWrUp89mDyWOimqGEBlWT8q6lrY t8sdilx2A3DXg/JxHt9hm8jDLAZ9p6OFXisjK/olNK9SUQp4LLvJpJijUPGFMw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=163.com header.s=s110527 header.b=J+2wDoYc; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=163.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.73 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=163.com header.s=s110527 header.b=J+2wDoYc; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=163.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 33DF91477B X-Spam-Score: -5.73 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: r9/OJp+LdX7U --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Make Guix available on Windows platform will be a painful job. 1. Windows doesn't allow user to create symbolic link without admin permission, which guix use intensely. 2. There's no RUNPATH for Windows DLL, so all dynamic library dependencies should in the same directory to allow Windows find it. 3. Many developers on Guix, but less developer on Guile. I post some thread= on guile-devel, but there's few people will reply me. And the Windows support of Guile 3 is still missing. Ryan Prior writes: > One side-thread in "Building a software toolchain that works" notes that = Guix faces challenges for adoption because it's > not readily available to users of proprietary operating systems like macO= S and Windows. > > I've witnessed over the past decade that GNU/Linux development on other p= latforms has become widespread, in large > part due to the availability of the Docker for Desktop application which = packages a lightweight, automagically managed > GNU/Linux virtual machine running the Docker daemon with Docker client so= ftware built for the target platform. > > A user of Docker for Desktop on a proprietary OS can run "docker" command= s which transparently execute commands > inside a GNU/Linux container, making building and testing software quite = convenient and reproducible without needing > to set up cross-compile toolchains or spend time managing VM software. > > It makes absolute sense to me that Guix is not interested in building a n= ative distribution for the Windows or macOS > toolchains. One of Guix System's unique strengths is its adherence to the= GNU FSDG and I don't think that's > incompatible with making the Guix tools more generally available to end-u= ser devs hacking on software using a > proprietary OS. > > Technically, I think we could use a similar approach to the Docker for De= sktop system: a "Guix for Desktop" installs > software to create and manage a minimal Guix System virtual machine which= automatically updates and reconfigures > itself, requiring no manual administration by the end-user. And it would = install a Guix client that connects to the Guix > daemon running in the VM using a shared socket, enabling users to incorpo= rate Guix transparently into their workflows. > > I think this would be a compromise for certain, the same way it is for Em= acs and other GNU flagship projects that run on > non-free systems. On the one hand, it serves to make those systems more v= aluable, which undermines our cause. But on > the other hand it provides a major on-ramp to free software and superior = build tooling, positively impacting the > practical freedoms available to the end-users who adopt Guix. > > wdyt? =2D-=20 Retrieve my PGP public key: gpg --recv-keys D47A9C8B2AE3905B563D9135BE42B352A9F6821F Zihao --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iIsEARYIADMWIQRefA5qkqvnKdl/GTlmOX+E92aT+QUCYjbhXRUcYWxsX2J1dF9s YXN0QDE2My5jb20ACgkQZjl/hPdmk/kMcQD+MlGfF4YBBENPYZLXAhi8BbY2L6Yg GkBIRQX2dccvPMIBAMJeBdSM3EfioA6s108MUUPtwjpOEXzNKR7K8qYB/QMF =XkF4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--