From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id yBf0IYN1AWUPaAEAauVa8A:P1 (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:40:35 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:403:478a::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id yBf0IYN1AWUPaAEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:40:35 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41C0551101 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:40:35 +0200 (CEST) Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=ipMWsUYF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1694594435; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=HtXv+3OJwK8s3SoWG6lckhWlVm/sU+35eRdFrinDbfw=; b=m77asQ5blsZpYxBY/o8lonbtU7TbPS0AELg1jIczHMXsuj0JwIk/mt/CMk6AIWbb36fKE6 4aMd6U/7Ofco2YTDRT+jxm/urvGy6xtbUdMj2UShP3a0IF4HfSnTHtkcN0oXkCyNIFOAO7 YZ0StodbytbCuAj5/K0MGOr4Qaad2dttJMYsIjsTJLWlE6pbYIqGccoVCq3nXNGOfhq+L7 F0yQxQ7L8MQpVlhQ2LX3ZMm0hPJutJ/sevMRag4PIpLA7HTfKHlkMP0SIbq7uFzXIuCyeG EoJr2JIbfazWRL95TfNcXiPN38hmzEXAhTd03EFBAzn4evdG0oW9BbCco3e2TQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1694594435; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=rnO8vWT7QPDQ/P2ebowqZ36N3zLOU3eaTe+u80vjVOLF6+AtvlMEJbVixQw9YosHIKuC9b o8NX2d135ipcihL1ZgyCt8SBho6ZNgE1UXA2rJq9ADBusqTUgpx9THFGoiq6kyx5gQbglb RCFlEuDeuqjMA2NLQnKtMXNOBEhnkqdqSm+2umgAmAAux9887Oi/L4uwq87agoGoBp2a4/ sRgrKsNukR4xVLBiLdVQJ7rvWo4wvjQ24/333+MvZipnDx5/WBnauZM3D+sevG45rbAxLt UOdwbJcTUC/weNsEpHvKWZrEvzhzwYQdJQlT6JPkxWTv3Kqouy+E6rqNcqE6HA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20221208 header.b=ipMWsUYF; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgLPd-0006Cn-Pf; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 04:39:54 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgLPc-0006BC-BS for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 04:39:52 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgLPZ-0001fn-2s for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 04:39:51 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-401d61e9fecso20091445e9.0 for ; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 01:39:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1694594387; x=1695199187; darn=gnu.org; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=HtXv+3OJwK8s3SoWG6lckhWlVm/sU+35eRdFrinDbfw=; b=ipMWsUYFM0W5HFFwopRPVQUWrRzxmKLEPKh++Y+9TuAPq8D7swVw1HJRZe+ULztJZt o/hm6qHmc9sUzQmUJ2Rv2j/LXd1P36ByMmkMNre6sD0EH11p5FQjYkTQ6QV5lsPhgnTZ L5HqT9YmxplWfnC0MQJINcn1QMPBfxdefB6cpKOYusXPnf+0ClxuAC4aY9fCBOn+nNmQ 8IT1pgKeep9PL/rmzzqZoJisCZMwIlTc//wiLIkqlYv5tVy1hiMVIDrFBHkyiaNM1jVZ Z7WV/KK2smabzQe0eLTvJhIOfcd+sWzZ+uCDTs0mbjRuctWRFv94XgNsCXmNEj61NJC7 mDsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1694594387; x=1695199187; h=content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:message-id:date:references :in-reply-to:subject:cc:to:from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=HtXv+3OJwK8s3SoWG6lckhWlVm/sU+35eRdFrinDbfw=; b=oX+ublrj/1kPQj4Uw+SsBRzzpyK2dtMaCvIYScdf0VZAi+zhHAFk3dPHTH+fYh2BIX 64A6A5xJRYiwrcLBaBeL4CAgketVuFPXjby/Y4zWHuEHCpSzKUD+j0JQd5S/2o9zje0x dClkmkKgmLpqLeMM0ZVoVe5xBa36SHnnZ0wFdGhz867fvya0vJ+DY6kXjtcwnRHmRMIZ saPRF1+k6PVF6r6QA2isTZqWEQvick5HXZq9Lyw7zZbeWzhAiw9TGtICEXHVl5nKzVUd ixbqgJ/xuce6eWKqFfTI/qtMXx/uWeMGTFYzs4OzUfFVnJjVL1w1xJXzCxc1bZ3bg+Ip JAkQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxZIbL3NjzFsOpJg+2hrbbFJVhkBacBlw6r1CattpGvOhXLsy/i BTiASo3DmsNaqkmsp1lO2g5Y02ZU090= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHfxfyx7qHSiwirw9hPnRAmB+CaoO7936r9AT+qam5hM3V5tvAe+2s/zhqTOnzQsuAAQpNDYg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5489:0:b0:31a:ed75:75e8 with SMTP id h9-20020a5d5489000000b0031aed7575e8mr1593802wrv.2.1694594387095; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 01:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lili ([2a01:e0a:59b:9120:65d2:2476:f637:db1e]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l17-20020a5d6751000000b003140f47224csm14853296wrw.15.2023.09.13.01.39.45 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 01:39:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Simon Tournier To: Katherine Cox-Buday , guix-devel@gnu.org Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: How can we decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors? In-Reply-To: References: <20230827135726.y33t55w4cvq6zsvb@X-kone> <874jkift8v.fsf@gmail.com> <867cp4sj7k.fsf@gmail.com> <38242808-2f06-4674-3842-aea1a5378d05@gmail.com> <86v8cop6sy.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8cldm8o.fsf@xelera.eu> <871qf87uzc.fsf@elephly.net> <87pm2set3x.fsf@xelera.eu> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 09:57:34 +0200 Message-ID: <8634ziy07l.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32e; envelope-from=zimon.toutoune@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Spam-Score: -1.98 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 41C0551101 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx0.migadu.com X-TUID: 6XjicXBLM19x Hi Katherine, On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 at 10:05, Katherine Cox-Buday wrote: > And these are subjective statements, which are bad to rest decisions on.= =20 > I have the opinion that this style of commit message is difficult and=20 > doesn't have a lot of value; others think it's easy and find a lot of=20 > value in it. About commit message format, I think this is the knot. Because the discussion is focused on =E2=80=9Ceasy vs difficult=E2=80=9C and there is n= o =E2=80=9Creal=E2=80=9D answer on this frame. Instead, the question appears to me about =E2=80=9Ccomplexity vs value=E2= =80=9D. The questions are not about pros and cons for some non well-defined ChangeLog-like commit format message, but what are the values of the commit messages for the project? Could you explain what are the values, from your perspective, about the commit message for the Guix project? Whatever the message format. The next question is then: does the current ChangeLog-like format capture these values? Or is another format that captures these values? The ChangeLog-like format is a mean for an end. As it is noticed elsewhere in the thread, this ChangeLog-like format fills an historical end. Here you say the ChangeLog-like =C2=ABdoesn't have a lot of value=C2= =BB but, if I have read correctly this thread, no one has explicitly said what is this end that the project wants? It is only with this angle of a more or less defined end that the mean can be scrutinized, IMHO. WDYT? > I don't place much emphasis on my opinion or others' on this, but I=20 > place an enormous emphasis on the existence of the two groups. We should= =20 > be curious why the two groups hold their opinions, and curious about a=20 > mutual path forward. I agree that the thread draws a line with two groups. However, this line is set using some personal preferences comparing apple to orange. For example, I also find =E2=80=9Cboring=E2=80=9D the kind of strictness of= the ChangeLog-like format so my personal preference would be tempted to belong to group A. In the same time, I recognize that this ChangeLog-like format provides helpful structure so my personal preference would be tempted to belong to group B. However, if I first list what I consider as the values for the commit messages at the project level, then the ChangeLog-like format appears to me filling the needs. Somehow, the line is drawn using a two-axis plot of =E2=80=9Ceasy vs boring= =E2=80=9D when instead we should draw a two-axis plot of =E2=80=9Ccomplexity vs captu= re the values=E2=80=9D. Bah, I do not know. Maybe, what I am saying makes no sense. :-) Cheers, simon