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Mon, 8 Jul 2024 17:21:50 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Enrico Schwass Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Sustainable funding and maintenance for our infrastructure Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2024 19:21:38 +0200 Message-Id: <80763E6E-2F9E-415C-9A9C-E6B980233BD3@me.com> References: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , guix-devel@gnu.org, guix-sysadmin In-Reply-To: To: Efraim Flashner X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (21F90) X-Proofpoint-GUID: pqfAWQgHD6sd6zv5lc3pMwUGhsdPPNsy X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: pqfAWQgHD6sd6zv5lc3pMwUGhsdPPNsy X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.272,Aquarius:18.0.1039,Hydra:6.0.680,FMLib:17.12.28.16 definitions=2024-07-08_09,2024-07-05_01,2024-05-17_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1011 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.19.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2407080130 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.63.169; 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 2917667176 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx12.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.76 X-Spam-Score: -9.76 X-TUID: R9gh86gvuVNR Hi Guix If you are looking for host services I have good experience with netcup.de. They also have ARM machines. My 3 machines have a great uptime Bye Enno > Am 2024/07/08 um 18:28 schrieb Efraim Flashner : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jul 02, 2024 at 04:24:06PM +0200, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wr= ote: >> Hello Guix! >>=20 >> We (Andreas, Chris, Ricardo, Romain, and myself) were having a >> discussion about what it would take to set up a build farm similar to >> what=E2=80=99s behind ci.guix: roughly 30 x86_64 servers, with 32-core/64= -thread >> CPUs and 128 GiB of RAM. The reason for this discussion is that we were >> thinking that we should not take our existing build farms for granted >> and be prepared for the future. >>=20 >> The various options and back-of-the-envelope estimates we came up with >> are as follows: >>=20 >> 1. Buying and hosting hardware: >> 250k=E2=82=AC for hardware >> 3k=E2=82=AC/month (36k=E2=82=AC/year) >>=20 >> 2. Renting machines (e.g., on Hetzner): >> 6k=E2=82=AC/month (72k=E2=82=AC/year) >>=20 >> 3. Sponsored: >> get hardware and/or hosting sponsored (by academic institutions or >> companies). >>=20 >> Option #1 gives us =E2=80=9Cfull control=E2=80=9D, the downside being tha= t it=E2=80=99s a lot of >> work and a real burden (get crowdfunding for the initial funding, later >> on to sustain funding to cover hosting, ensure Guix Foundation is up to >> the task of managing the assets, and of course to take care of the >> machines for their entire lifecycle). >>=20 >> Option #2 gives us less control (we don=E2=80=99t know exactly what hardw= are is >> being used and have to trust the company hosting the machines). The >> upside is that it=E2=80=99s much less work over time (the company is resp= onsible >> for upgrading hardware) and less work initially (no need to raise as >> much money to buy hardware). >>=20 >> Option #3 potentially gives less control (depending on the project=E2=80=99= s >> relation with the hosting organization) and makes the project dependent >> on the sponsor and/or person(s) in touch with them. On the upside, it >> could significantly reduce costs (potentially to 0=E2=82=AC). >>=20 >>=20 >> This is an important topic for the project, one we should plan for: >> socially, financially, technically. This takes time, which is why >> preparation is needed. >>=20 >> What do people think? >>=20 >> Ludo=E2=80=99 & co. >=20 > Looking at Hetzner, they have an option to rent a dedicated ARM server > with 80 cores/threads with 256GB of RAM and 2x3.84 TB NVMe drives for > under =E2=82=AC300/month and a =E2=82=AC94 setup charge. Correct me if I"m= wrong, but > that one box is ~20x our current active aarch64/armv7 capacity. >=20 > Also looking at our current infrastructure at MDC, part of the reason we > have so many x86_64 machines is because that's what was bought with the > donated money, not because we actually needed quite that many, so some > of the numbers might be higher than we actually need. >=20 > --=20 > Efraim Flashner =D7=A8=D7=A0=D7=A9=D7=9C=D7=A4= =D7=9D=D7=99=D7=A8=D7=A4=D7=90 > GPG key =3D A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351 > Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypte= d > > Am 2024/07/08 um 18:28 schrieb Efraim Flashner : >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Tue, Jul 02, 2024 at 04:24:06PM +0200, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wr= ote: >> Hello Guix! >>=20 >> We (Andreas, Chris, Ricardo, Romain, and myself) were having a >> discussion about what it would take to set up a build farm similar to >> what=E2=80=99s behind ci.guix: roughly 30 x86_64 servers, with 32-core/64= -thread >> CPUs and 128 GiB of RAM. The reason for this discussion is that we were >> thinking that we should not take our existing build farms for granted >> and be prepared for the future. >>=20 >> The various options and back-of-the-envelope estimates we came up with >> are as follows: >>=20 >> 1. Buying and hosting hardware: >> 250k=E2=82=AC for hardware >> 3k=E2=82=AC/month (36k=E2=82=AC/year) >>=20 >> 2. Renting machines (e.g., on Hetzner): >> 6k=E2=82=AC/month (72k=E2=82=AC/year) >>=20 >> 3. Sponsored: >> get hardware and/or hosting sponsored (by academic institutions or >> companies). >>=20 >> Option #1 gives us =E2=80=9Cfull control=E2=80=9D, the downside being tha= t it=E2=80=99s a lot of >> work and a real burden (get crowdfunding for the initial funding, later >> on to sustain funding to cover hosting, ensure Guix Foundation is up to >> the task of managing the assets, and of course to take care of the >> machines for their entire lifecycle). >>=20 >> Option #2 gives us less control (we don=E2=80=99t know exactly what hardw= are is >> being used and have to trust the company hosting the machines). The >> upside is that it=E2=80=99s much less work over time (the company is resp= onsible >> for upgrading hardware) and less work initially (no need to raise as >> much money to buy hardware). >>=20 >> Option #3 potentially gives less control (depending on the project=E2=80=99= s >> relation with the hosting organization) and makes the project dependent >> on the sponsor and/or person(s) in touch with them. On the upside, it >> could significantly reduce costs (potentially to 0=E2=82=AC). >>=20 >>=20 >> This is an important topic for the project, one we should plan for: >> socially, financially, technically. This takes time, which is why >> preparation is needed. >>=20 >> What do people think? >>=20 >> Ludo=E2=80=99 & co. >=20 > Looking at Hetzner, they have an option to rent a dedicated ARM server > with 80 cores/threads with 256GB of RAM and 2x3.84 TB NVMe drives for > under =E2=82=AC300/month and a =E2=82=AC94 setup charge. Correct me if I"m= wrong, but > that one box is ~20x our current active aarch64/armv7 capacity. >=20 > Also looking at our current infrastructure at MDC, part of the reason we > have so many x86_64 machines is because that's what was bought with the > donated money, not because we actually needed quite that many, so some > of the numbers might be higher than we actually need. >=20 > -- > Efraim Flashner =D7=A8=D7=A0=D7=A9=D7=9C=D7=A4= =D7=9D=D7=99=D7=A8=D7=A4=D7=90 > GPG key =3D A28B F40C 3E55 1372 662D 14F7 41AA E7DC CA3D 8351 > Confidentiality cannot be guaranteed on emails sent or received unencrypte= d >