From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id zrr8N0b1iWCWUwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 01:52:38 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id 0IeJMkb1iWAeAwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 23:52:38 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7333412281 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 01:52:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:52824 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbtyv-0002H7-Ip for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:52:37 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40594) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbtyl-0002Gs-3p for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:52:27 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.tugraz.at ([129.27.2.202]:30287) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lbtyh-0001UM-3B for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 28 Apr 2021 19:52:26 -0400 Received: from nijino.local (194-96-9-9.adsl.highway.telekom.at [194.96.9.9]) by mailrelay.tugraz.at (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4FVwR13Lznz1DH6m; Thu, 29 Apr 2021 01:52:13 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mailrelay.tugraz.at 4FVwR13Lznz1DH6m DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tugraz.at; s=mailrelay; t=1619653934; bh=UgbiopiiGLTQ/60u175ZkTRlUKP+vA623wMIaCoiGZI=; h=Subject:From:To:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=dPXO+ElVUsf1ecswzMWzjs2BCnGzgaVmS9aPpm0T55jvmrO29PEE1rtrNM5RVKf85 UExkiIgGQwGFwVLJxaTTtE/K1beocYj/WbxJVIk9ELhQaMG2UX2qpfQu3PzE0c6ELj dMvcvaJ79G8zGe8zZov+9muhY0hrW7P+bTb+XmpM= Message-ID: <7966a531b5bf82f4c6a9b7c6e9a610602ee257ec.camel@student.tugraz.at> Subject: Re: Meta Guix: why guix is awesome! From: Leo Prikler To: Joshua Branson , guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2021 01:52:12 +0200 In-Reply-To: <874kfqba1n.fsf@dismail.de> References: <874kfqba1n.fsf@dismail.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.34.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-TUG-Backscatter-control: bt4lQm5Tva3SBgCuw0EnZw X-Spam-Scanner: SpamAssassin 3.003001 X-Spam-Score-relay: -1.9 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.74 on 129.27.10.117 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=129.27.2.202; envelope-from=leo.prikler@student.tugraz.at; helo=mailrelay.tugraz.at X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619653958; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=UgbiopiiGLTQ/60u175ZkTRlUKP+vA623wMIaCoiGZI=; b=QJkXSPcDB6DOjIodY7mPGWeuBm+nY84Ybve2lY+gCMMwpCKc6RJhywX02NXGWYH0Y9F5PJ UTMtduWvf0k0MXoRU2TfWtbA6X8LsxE2E4rPScG+nzo+0syXYXrGAVcI0WhDwDhQHpPejf PqsnPiZ7NZMmMllutCBjUjO65XwcnJ/8qih1T4FRP4ln726hyN/ly/cWC2cFYCm5GtdVTK ZDEsd4UVAjnrm86248IjEe0ZO/jNZAPX6sYCUNYdKrtVnrBrv83T+1iDU68JgQkctQujU4 8xh/Kdkl1f9V5Fx+jP1hEkZkKNzCvXZ3Hi5WLLflbO+I0G/eg0Y+mmgU2YD5Vg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619653958; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=lfpb/jV83myzNPBvJeL7jIigpHRcMVdsn/eDLAEP6jJlyX2s63BTWdD9qpUpoSIWYCjIT9 arLiYJDxQTckCvw2YU4hQXByQo9T2Ffl0kg0hICMgN/2cg+YBGjCIOklRVjZNix9PNCj5z f57nFMERjEc5pnt634VzvclYo3LRuF+RQj/A0+hKFq+dp7dzAN/oi3WEqMS40bLN713n8b 1pEkIMEMsmFo3/jLknUQcbxZWz9eVhX2SZhCoIDw1Ud+W0YFvEwM2LKygs6JyMr4QeFlZV zbUMnJkB760JHVpxI83SFuIr99/ccsDmwWcjNGwoVVzYV8l90QkFhJXTk9zxDg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=tugraz.at header.s=mailrelay header.b=dPXO+ElV; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=student.tugraz.at; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.15 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=tugraz.at header.s=mailrelay header.b=dPXO+ElV; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=student.tugraz.at; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7333412281 X-Spam-Score: -3.15 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: VWr7ybUjmOmn Hi Joshua Am Mittwoch, den 28.04.2021, 13:20 -0400 schrieb Joshua Branson: > Hello guix developers! > > Guix is brilliantly fantastic! I thought I would write down some of > the > things that make guix such a great community and a powerful free > software tool. I intend this email to encourage guix developers and > perhaps encourage other free software projects to copy guix's > success. > > 1. It encourages non-english speaking participation. Guix's manual > is > a work of art that has been translated into a few languages: > German, Spanish, French, Russian, and Chinese? Honestly my font > in > my browser can't read the last translation...but I think it's > Mandorin (spelling?) IIRC, it's simplified (Han) Chinese. Mandarin is afaik not a writing system. > Anyway, guix has a strong push to NOT be an > American only project. It also has some email lists for > non-english speakers. That is awesome! I had never thought about > non-English mailing lists, but there certainly are non-english > speakers that would love to get help. Also the website is > available many languages. Please note, that English is not only American. I for one, encourage the use of any gratuitous "u" in any word, that allows it. Fear my colourful language! > 2. Guix's leadership is non-political. I recall on the mailing list > an issue raised about freedom of speech concerns. Many emotion > emails went back and forth over this issue with guix developers > expressing a variety of opinions. I actually felt encouraged that > Ludo did NOT say anything in this email exchange. That signaled > to > me that Ludo doesn't care what your political views are. Anyone > and everyone is free to contribute to guix regardless of what you > believe! I strongly disagree in on this in two points: 2.a. free software is inherently political 2.b. being political is not a bad thing I think there's a strong tendency to equate politics with "people being mad at you on the Internet" or "companies wearing a rainbow flag during pride month", especially among American conservatives. Those are not the same and never have been. Of course, "free software" does not completely dictate what ideology you are allowed to have, but for the sake of everyone involved (especially in heated debates), know that there are limits on what is (or at least should be) allowed in our mailing lists. If you want to know why freedom of speech must be limited in such a fashion, please read up on the paradox of tolerance. > 3. It has great marketing. I think this really ought to be stressed > a > lot! Guix has numerous blog posts that demonstrate that the > project is alive. And they are really well written. And > engaging! > I absolutely love guix's blog! And the website is hip! And it's > got great artwork! I don't know enough about marketing to give you a good answer on that, but when it comes to what we're competing against, it seems to be a rather uphill battle outside of the small bubble, that we've carved out. According to distrowatch we're still far away from Nix and back when I was using Gentoo I thought that was some super niche distro. > 4. Some people work full time on guix (and get paid). There are a > few guix developers who develop A LOT for guix. I think the main > source of income for several prominent guix developers is from > cluster deployments as seen here: https://hpc.guix.info/about/ > Also > some developers get grants to work for guix as well. This is a > personal view, but I do believe that free software ought to > somehow > pay some developers. That's how they can continue to develop the > software. I think you'll find full-time workers in any project of a certain size, Guix being no exception to that. > 5. Guix's leadership lets the best idea win. I personally think > Ludo's last line on his email is genius: "Thoughts?". It's a > great > idea to solicit feedback, and I believe that Ludo genuinely wants > your thought and opinions. There are a few variations of this, but generally when we ask WDYT, it's because we've raised some points to think about :) > 6. Guix has big goals! What is org-mode? Emacs? Guix? The > GNU/Hurd? All of these projects are sometimes hard to define. > There are so many things that you can do with guix! Declarable > operating system. Bootstrapped distro. Portable distro. Server > manager. Soon maybe a guix home manager. This maybe violates the > unix philosophy of small programs that do things well, but perhaps > because guix dreams big it can dare crazy things! Guix may perhaps not be the smallest package manager (to be honest, I have no way of telling as it's the only one I'm involved in), but I can definitely say, that it does things well, so your point about violating Unix philosophy is invalidated :P Also, Guix does not yet write email for you, we still have to offload that to git. > 7. Guix is NOT linux development! Guix encourages newbie developers > by sometimes fixing their really AWFUL code (or documentation). > AND NOT being angry at those trivial errors. For example, some of > my documentation "fixes" were me pointing out an tiny issue with > the manual. Then I sent a diff that didn't work. And someone > else > submitted a patch on my behalf that did my suggestion. It's nice > to know that you won't be needlessly insulted while contributing > to > guix. A great example of this can be found in the irc log. I > recall one such instance of a newbie asking about a silly > bug/feature. In a moment of frustration I thought about saying > something rude (I did not say it). Ludo actually responded to the > question with something like, "That's a great point. Why don't > you > open a bug report here, so that we can properly discuss it?" That > was very kind/smart! Which ties back to point 2. Guix aims to be inclusive and being inclusive means toning down the rudeness. Btw. since we're on the topic of politics, let me point something out: > https://propernaming.org I'm well aware, that virtue signaling does not help anyone, but 1. "we donate to non-profits" is literally virtue signaling 2. the way they insist on certain terminology out of "tradition" (and it is mostly tradition) reminds me strongly about "the T-slur means something else in this context" (you'll know which slur and which context if you've been involved in or followed such debates) 3. creating a controversy out of people trying to make computing a little more inclusive by changing a few things in our vocabulary sounds pretty reactionary as a whole To the words themselves: - black/white: This one shouldn't even be up to debate. I've already seen papers and projects using red/green instead, which has less unfortunate implications while still being colours (of course, the old thing with red being a lucky colour in China applies here, but oh well). If allow/deny is not to your taste, what about good/evil, nice/naughty or shall_pass/shall_not_pass? - cracker/hacker: this doesn't seem to have been written in response to an actual suggestion, so I assume it's just them trolling - execution etc.: making unfunny jokes based on one's own improper understanding of latin - fuck me harder: I don't kinkshame. - foo/bar: how conservative do you need to be to find bars offensive? - gb: Literally just there to have more sex on the page - git: Wie Ihnen dieses Projekt auf dem Deppendrehkreuz[1] zeigt, wissen wir Deutsche sehr wohl, wie man Deppen beschuldigt. - I'm starting to get hacked off by the number of sex references they deem to be absolutely necessary. Are those folks horny on main? - KISS is silly salespeak - master/slave: wow, we're back to an actual suggestion. What's funny about this one, is that some projects (*cough* Python *cough*) think it's morally acceptable to s/master/manager/ and s/slave/worker/. Really tells you something about the world we live in. I think (effectively) enslaving parts of our system runs somewhat counter to what we as free software advocates should strive for, but given their post record so far it could also be that propernaming is really hard into BDSM, in which I would contradict my earlier point about not kinkshaming. - Red Hat is also not worn by the clergy of the Catholic Church. - RTFM: Yeah, don't use that, there are nicer ways of telling people to read the appropriate sections of an info file. - Why does "virgins and people who have not had sex in years" sound like it could accurately describe the people behind propernaming? - I don't think anyone has ever been offended by trees – it's usually the other way round – but there are (some reasonable and some less reasonable) arguments to support one's fear of spiders, both physical and digital. Regards, Leo [1] https://github.com/danielauener/git-auf-deutsch