From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id 4K/BOrcXqmIlBwAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 19:32:40 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id 2F3BOrcXqmLqFAAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 19:32:39 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A69A125E0E for ; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 19:32:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:55594 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1Wsg-0006Be-Lm for larch@yhetil.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 13:32:38 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39256) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1WsQ-0006A5-Ly for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 13:32:22 -0400 Received: from michel.telenet-ops.be ([2a02:1800:110:4::f00:18]:46154) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o1WsO-00066z-2x for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 13:32:22 -0400 Received: from ptr-bvsjgyhxw7psv60dyze.18120a2.ip6.access.telenet.be ([IPv6:2a02:1811:8c09:9d00:3c5f:2eff:feb0:ba5a]) by michel.telenet-ops.be with bizsmtp id jVYD2700G4UW6Th06VYE7m; Wed, 15 Jun 2022 19:32:14 +0200 Message-ID: <6aca367bce796a4856ef583cc65bfae22d946691.camel@telenet.be> Subject: Re: how to write services (was: Re: Teams) From: Maxime Devos To: Blake Shaw , Ricardo Wurmus Cc: catonano@gmail.com, Andrew Tropin , Josselin Poiret , Guix Devel , GNU Guix maintainers Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2022 19:32:05 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <87a6as62r2.fsf@elephly.net> <87ilpfwmi0.fsf@jpoiret.xyz> <877d5j5vng.fsf@trop.in> <87a666663179c883aaa1797b62c3bcb0084d3ebb.camel@gmail.com> <87bkuuyqf9.fsf@elephly.net> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha512"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=-AJhhW5Uct/P/GW0h20d7" User-Agent: Evolution 3.38.3-1 MIME-Version: 1.0 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telenet.be; s=r22; t=1655314334; bh=BilplSeQ37cox+PBxpmdTsum+9HgKykD01Q1WUUmJIk=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References; b=bA7nt/4VntUkiX4ANe4J4iRHTtpP8oNDbIOw54BrH7iTamKLxvlSTpw1fhBtCzoy8 pv0npaut1zEAOM4Gx5pK7jTLhSf9BBp68xK45wnJbQYkihJYr+ZJ1VRYN7wLM2j1pN PrxLetWJFBsNSLB1eQ9y6TdcPX8unrXR/U6DSSW5cL5q8PiC1uiMIGzMm9JvWu0Ef+ iOlI4PbDk9s16YNUxNn6tvXANjx/g70AWxNHnCFAruK2LFZXHIVAQ7lvrJYYNXpN3Q SUrNQTmDgvn4AcQRhE+jzm5w2JUMsEdmF1gt3fo49o/aUVjz5vFFONt/F5PwYkD8BG fwtnig0kTaXhg== Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a02:1800:110:4::f00:18; envelope-from=maximedevos@telenet.be; helo=michel.telenet-ops.be X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655314359; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=BilplSeQ37cox+PBxpmdTsum+9HgKykD01Q1WUUmJIk=; b=RD9gJGSo28AfEBWexqF9tmWaRI7H8z187fqt1jEF/ZBksdgowxp61yBuv0A1qRPEsn/Woj d8njqWL/s0ieTWIZnnonJ20fuKSFgSd6Qw+hHxpS8HGFDIGruPOnigzH4Jn3goeq4il8zV V++XrmFWOcge11kazd9Qgrq1na/TqnNzbc+wezWjyhN6vddQOhvSDKOlifQU49XqE3OqWC i1nrF8a1GVrWnfbq5udECTb1XdkOhscOy2fUo9R+jLaNWxK8Zjw3M+JLvoGwu6zr0HIHcY jQ8qqpRbogjV/9FGmvKDzHtTX/NmX1Gz9iJ+5B+6zBu+VLece8g24pHA2M8hVQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655314359; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=pTzVyv4igQqakKrrhgMlwxqth7WgPKDUEOqNpMGz8HPoBISfPglrLCvMF/glXzz+4qG+Nt YIqr7y75cToFzlBaBLLEDzR1eHIwm+/VG79R4RF868DxrdSHoR88LhfTUokxnKK5KPdf7G bSVu7mf8L5/gEnWHCc4xD6B9wwkxvV5rHpVKLjV3suA3ZNYOe1+2FTUS2Oaxh0iuiOQjRz NtSnuqpP5uZB16TjHC49dP0AZb3sb5XxgzQpYFBFsiIFtJqFU3nQS4AM0vRZWBr5J5qewK UMZp1NgfEM6bMZu/UNKDmGaULe40k0Zy4tD7lwmxC5M+Af2m9ng4vnXAdn/WVQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=telenet.be header.s=r22 header.b="bA7nt/4V"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=telenet.be; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -11.39 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=telenet.be header.s=r22 header.b="bA7nt/4V"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=telenet.be; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A69A125E0E X-Spam-Score: -11.39 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: vNPP/RXl2ZTn --=-AJhhW5Uct/P/GW0h20d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Blake Shaw schreef op wo 15-06-2022 om 17:01 [+0000]: > Thats very good advice and will be a useful guide in refactoring the > parts of the system services documentation. I think in general, we > need to find a nice middle ground between the extremely general and > the immediately sensible, as I remember when I first got into guix > 1.5 years ago, arriving at services left me very confused.=20 I don't doubt your confusal, though personally I'm confused on the confusal and I think I would have been confused by =E2=80=98file AND file-l= ike object=E2=80=99. Even more so since we both come from a mathematical background, where AFAICT this kind of terminology and Guix' interpretation is standard. > mathematics I'm a fellow appreciator of the power of generality (the > extreme genericity of scheme and guix is why I'm here!), I also think > if it doesn't obey strict linguistic rules it can antithetical to its > original purpose. I don't see what linguistic rule the term =E2=80=98file-like object=E2=80= =99 does not follow. =20 > For example, I remember being very confused about > "file-like objects", for the simple reason that it wasn't "a file or > file-like object". While this might come from a GNU terminological > lineage i'm unaware of, AFAIK no relation to GNU. > my immediate reaction to trying to understand > file-likeness is the simple rule that a semblance is strictly not > what it resembles, and likeness qualifies semblance. It would be > improper to place phones in a category of "phone-like objects", > because the likeness assumes a distinction from the thing itself. An object being =E2=80=98X-like=E2=80=99 merely means that it is like an X.= =C2=A0This does not imply it _isn't_ an X, only suggests that in some cases it might be a non-X. More concretely, to me phones resemble phones and are objects, so phones are phone-like objects. Summarised, to me semblance/similar/likeness is reflexive, I don't see where the non-reflexivity would come from? Something I dislike about the =E2=80=98file AND file-like objects=E2=80=99 = construction is that it suggests that files and file-like objects are separate and are handled separately, whereas files (as in, 'local-file' or 'computed-file') are just another case of file-like objects to Guix (next to 'file-append', 'package', 'git-checkout', ...). Furthermore, usually file-like objects aren't files but more often they are packages. For a comparison, suppose we have a hierarchy of concepts, e.g. {0}=E2=8A=8A=E2=84=95=E2=8A=8A=E2=84=A4=E2=8A=8A=E2=84=9A=E2=8A=8A=E2=84= =9D=E2=8A=8A=E2=84=82 Whole numbers can (informally speaking) be considered to be natural- like numbers. Yet, that doesn't make natural numbers non-whole.=20 Compare: File-like objects are objects that are like a file. Yet, that doesn't make files non-file-like. Greetings, Maxime. --=-AJhhW5Uct/P/GW0h20d7 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iI0EABYKADUWIQTB8z7iDFKP233XAR9J4+4iGRcl7gUCYqoXlRccbWF4aW1lZGV2 b3NAdGVsZW5ldC5iZQAKCRBJ4+4iGRcl7rHKAP9OVeFmN+gKmGei5nB2BPiyepLM zkxYBmpqfthvNCvmzwEAlpVrQUvWECdPoTe+r5lQcPbyx9wdkiikNddEmPxA+QU= =mE/Y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-AJhhW5Uct/P/GW0h20d7--