From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id yMDtGjWhNGFX0gAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 12:51:33 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id LUu1FjWhNGHDYAAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 10:51:33 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7981A1A77D for ; Sun, 5 Sep 2021 12:51:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39770 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMpkJ-0006IQ-BP for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 06:51:31 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50586) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMpjs-0006IA-JQ for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 06:51:04 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-x442.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::442]:46654) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mMpjq-0001pz-Tl for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 06:51:04 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-x442.google.com with SMTP id x6so5232767wrv.13 for ; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:50:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5e+WHyIx1aEG2vp4rwtyRXJCpZaVFeuKuxIDlXfZiDE=; b=ETXovvpLASgIHhbNWge3fqwJqG4yoiPgeWzSl9LEWTjVxk2zJRF+RPmKBV4LTnH0RC 73s26vGdI675sO11Xc98RNdqQkeyFOJC5cIEvvmSZHviwQ3eDLr20mLQMKEPq0+WZ1O/ Ond+UDNkty0jPq7ZUEjK9G4HBVdVB7usd/QKXZhKN68TA8LXUNYcwfKPLriNHZRgkL8E ta0hqJRULH4pnUBTo/LK4LN4Vt+7DiOW7iIat1BYx8BLzG0uAAs53ZT2CUXBE2MIhHPD gZUAbteQK2coNU9YOkMqoq599PyxtJ9+uJjp2f7UuyPIVqM8rNLsslw1XwVYtK4mSFCg uXUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to :references:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5e+WHyIx1aEG2vp4rwtyRXJCpZaVFeuKuxIDlXfZiDE=; b=elbpxIHl6IFkvSfFJfVwL6su04wPrwSVu+HerFNvOVjYOkT+Skvy/PHRvrYPh/CsP0 MIYvxKpWz4F74F9L4RmXOHLYFqwredTskwHIX5fTOo8wcRIZ/e0ej7PUKpkXq6piJ1+i iMkHkaak4+oiY5/2OK58vBFKszcqSo4+gFW4SVkF5c9QoRKGkYtB0KjsizvF78K1DoI7 45vouyOuvnW+qjFQ8kVAUE4WNhScKNlmfthdtE4/nvDGRhVewqs2iWmUILzSerU5X+Fa 3Z1OzwMdLXY1s/5tVqF+Hb0EMZCO/WUiZcpNBUZnb4gL/dFdEvf3vg/ZGNFNwBnJ5vyN 4eCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532SCCr6GCuM04aBIcjwvMzr2TtrV/z87ag8dDNDuooSKJnGlUUB T7KEYzd34zoB2GJjGGmYaGI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJztp80bvfr2ReyNKuj+ld9JRnLI12g+nJR5Tv5mhJlt50Fj8T7xe9TO/xIxfN2H6WL6KAqEHg== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:490d:: with SMTP id x13mr7941065wrq.412.1630839058597; Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nijino.local (194-118-34-199.adsl.highway.telekom.at. [194.118.34.199]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l35sm4016424wms.40.2021.09.05.03.50.57 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 05 Sep 2021 03:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <5492ffcdec13bf81cff285e14d0ff49a78e6c5c9.camel@gmail.com> Subject: Guix Jargon File (WAS: Rethinking propagated inputs?) From: Liliana Marie Prikler To: Bengt Richter , Attila Lendvai Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2021 12:50:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20210905095018.GA2963@LionPure> References: <86h7ezkfq9.fsf@mgsn.dev> <382a46ced17110e1bc03b94ba078b38c2669deac.camel@gmail.com> <20210905095018.GA2963@LionPure> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.34.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::442; envelope-from=liliana.prikler@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x442.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org, Sarah Morgensen Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1630839093; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=5e+WHyIx1aEG2vp4rwtyRXJCpZaVFeuKuxIDlXfZiDE=; b=CwSDRB5lhQuwzOgduWquNWd3BPgR9pVesHRVtg8qhy7VIJ4ZjvastK1scbvGVbx9o6SkYJ tmuBWgvDU3EPZlZSG33EX9wefsbtD/c3BE9pNEmBDCpP1zuxHDTmLd6McBQJLsFnPUXhdB VTxlJTd2ApJ5ABrc47urLxlZ1JW9wwX3iS54ZT7+LXQA2GrWV8tibyqVF3tY3XZoc9Tcep uYcCw1Ad5O2MXKBhOAgXg546vVCRXdiJFcrp3HGXQninNpvfcm4BrufY2vFrn+YAVOhOky Cn2wxgEXSMJ0nUn3OPBt9fjys0lHmVV5DICVQOBOvc9rtKAfuWp78WcWPIYnPw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1630839093; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=cje4efI8mgdukk6Tf5cwm+H+IcIjFiL8MTNrHZheHFLhI2BtQZmrwn469G7Z5FiQDNvIei 3YVK/rVYfhYmITHHcuGnF3zkLRgeXgjFggwiozEEeFxkioMpnf0A+guVbpPFysk8YS+rDH Up148LPuDcz2BppSEmiQfv8wpFcuyW70MOOcNctXSBMF8tOvkRCIpoiA7zFR2hgpqkks6Q CPmaDy45vcmMmfQIrMMi1MYYzHGL6bDg229mj1oiDimFzk50eFte516aHj2PbL9PIWPk3d rT8DUVp6c2J7fx8ufNQfoD1xCcovtJnEqtrbnv5lMHtsmyJoug2uMKw0JGF3Qg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=ETXovvpL; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=ETXovvpL; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7981A1A77D X-Spam-Score: -1.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: BwAVmiaABFa/ Hi, Am Sonntag, den 05.09.2021, 11:50 +0200 schrieb Bengt Richter: > > We don't call things build-inputs here in Guix land, that's a no-no > > :P > > Is there an official guix jargon file or glossary file or texi file > or wikimedia/wiktionary/wikipedia clone on gnu.org that non- > cognoscenti could use to get a clue? AFAIK no, you more or less have to go by what the manual tells you. As for why we have native-inputs and not build-inputs like other distros, it's because people often misclassify "build" inputs, so the definition actually does more harm than good. Guix knows which files are actually "just used for build" by what ends up in the store, with some exceptions like UTF-32 encoded strings. > Is there a thread that on that topic making any progress on making it > happen? AFAIK no. > when someone in a thread like this offers a candidate official > definition, (off-topic sort of, but meta-on-topic for relevant > documentation) could it be snip-quoted for easy search and > aggregation for maintainers of official definitions and translations? > E.g. > (or actually borrow some rfc0842 or descendant so an attached file > generates a usuable section in mail archives that can be snarfed > automatically?) > > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8--- > X-Content-type: Cadidate-guix-jargon-definition > Ad lib comment and metacomment ended by blank line ... > "> We don't call things build-inputs here in Guix land, that's a no- > no :P" > > build-propagated-inputs: > > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8--- When you quote someone like that out-of-context, you run a risk of misrepresenting what is actually stated. What I mean, is that a package field called something along the lines of "build-inputs" is likely to confuse Guix veterans and newcomers alike, as evidenced by the following reply: Am Sonntag, den 05.09.2021, 10:06 +0000 schrieb Attila Lendvai: > potentially worthless two cents from a newcomer's perspective: > 'build-time' and 'run-time' are well established concepts in the > wider community. And one, that is well misunderstood. > if i were reading 'linked-inputs' in a package definition, i wouldn't > associate it to being the set of build-time dependencies. That's not what linked-inputs are, though. Take the following paragraph from propagated-inputs: > For example this is necessary when packaging a C/C++ library > that needs headers of another library to compile, or when a > pkg-config file refers to another one via its ‘Requires’ > field. This use case of propagated inputs explains why they need to be propagated when given as a (propagated-)input to a package, but not when given as a native input or merely existing in a profile. The – required if we go by other systems – use case of installing libraries system- or user-wide is already discouraged by Guix, for it is not needed. As long as we can spawn an environment, in which we can compile these things, it should be enough. Note, that this is not equivalent to being a "build-time" dependency. Going by Gentoo's definition "Build dependencies are used to specify any dependencies that are required to unpack, patch, compile, test or install the package", GCC is a build dependency of nearly any C program (and a native one at that, i.e. BDEPEND in Gentoo), but it's not a linked-dependency, because there are numerous ways in which other programs could use it without ever needing to invoke GCC. Guix, of course, includes GCC as an implicit native input anyway, but that's a different topic. Regards