From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id SFwqBAdocmFnUwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:28:07 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id 4Mp4OwZocmF2ZQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 07:28:06 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83949D93D for ; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 09:28:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:44678 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mdoyD-0001Pr-DP for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:28:05 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33352) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mdoti-0003Rj-V0 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:23:27 -0400 Received: from libre.brussels ([144.76.234.112]:55638) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mdotf-0005Tc-3x for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 22 Oct 2021 03:23:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=libre.brussels; s=mail; t=1634887400; h=from:from:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=kDgvd2ceBblg2NXgVpQVgl2jE5ljjhyIcGWi7tWJ0pE=; b=Z1S3oIC3G0jHtDK5zNlG1HTPEss7TnYJPNlbqM0m/Lprv7f+hBrXyCnV4y+pyonEC8lsPB vJAbQVwi/7bT891K5LcF3fEK/3eRwTLGY+C+9RlCmyVqKy9iOOLTw1KEZidmNAlaV5BJFr VF2Gn/AtNQ5Qc6WkFMv/H2iZDMU0KnI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2021 07:23:20 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: "Jonathan McHugh" Message-ID: <50ef77c254dc1a2ecbad72de66119710@libre.brussels> Subject: Re: Public guix offload server To: "Tobias Geerinckx-Rice" , "zimoun" In-Reply-To: <87mtn256it.fsf@nckx> References: <87mtn256it.fsf@nckx> <864k9a2r1m.fsf@gmail.com> <878rynh0yq.fsf@systemreboot.net> <87cznz74l5.fsf@nckx> <864k9ag5k0.fsf@gmail.com> <87a6j272oz.fsf@nckx> <14fcfe6c31dab2128746730df72caba0@libre.brussels> <867de611ya.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=144.76.234.112; envelope-from=indieterminacy@libre.brussels; helo=libre.brussels X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1634887686; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=kDgvd2ceBblg2NXgVpQVgl2jE5ljjhyIcGWi7tWJ0pE=; b=JZNiftpTpBrEtEaKn9dNyK3wkmtnptV7TanddDE0veMWLOvj3kH2NVzNA9yw8FowkjdhGD rvxlAKG0d+tm9LPPOJ9CXKtaTo1HrCCRb1KuJ0D8oZp7g6Xa2KcCWBTSIEdpInQlSYir+R jiN99OQxF5Hll39UpmuCCZSyYzhTGZneEvvj8q6xrQxVggwWSvYkKxoByXO5xgxFbMpm9D BgPc5qQzn7nPYEllGRb+ujosH/dm809PeMgw7/7C0IixLZ5hr2X4tQCb8/pyT2UUZX82Bc ctcO4vZnjj2ZqgsJf/CZhg6vPKCWYp0lT15r/o7DJl6WCtVnCYXhoC2WdyF5AQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1634887686; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=u6Y1uW3m00ixforEuSBnxUKc+/eYydd8WyMiQFZ9o4WlRYPdB6hxe8n40ytYNmDkUqud2j 6CdDvHBwy6almngTGqHLQMlkqKdsJIUYKl/8GxhC9r/4YxyOdNBM1j2YTMm4Veud4O5iGe lGU9bpbP+WlkMYrI5nl9TjBXAdKdQZZbxyKTCUNLhZxRKURO0X/bGWEs0VnjE1yoI+xM56 Dmr+9IOVvyITUyBfTVeRISbWOB7BSNxzZm/CgwFc6WhfLQ+HDALoOzgPJaqAjJ/o0AzUg8 WxjznQOAkE1eJt/Uht4SGxLt4cpLwGROSlIHubTDG7QyhTJtBYY+1f/xmbW0bg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=Z1S3oIC3; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=libre.brussels (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.33 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=libre.brussels header.s=mail header.b=Z1S3oIC3; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=libre.brussels (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 83949D93D X-Spam-Score: -1.33 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: DOcdHg0eIO9P I have utmost confidence in the Guix project, it has lots of smart and in= quisitive people to suppliment its accountable structures - a very useful= bulwark against exploitative behaviour! =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Jonathan McHugh indieterminacy@libre.brussels October 22, 2021 12:59 AM, "Tobias Geerinckx-Rice" wrote: > All, >=20 >=20zimoun =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A >=20 >>=20Do you mean that trusted users would try WM-escape exploits? >>> The world has been formed by warewolves inside communities >>> purposely >>> causing harm. Looking further back, Oliver the Spy is a classic >>> examplar of trust networks being hollowed out. >=20 >=20So=E2=80=A6 >=20 >>=20I cannot assume that on one hand one trusted person pushes to >> the main >> Git repo in good faith and on other hand this very same trusted >> person >> behaves as a warewolves using a shared resource. >=20 >=20=E2=80=A6li'l' sleepy here, bewarned, but before this gets out of han= d: I > never implied direct abuse of trust by committers. I don't > consider it the main threat[0]. >=20 >=20There are the people you meet at FOSDEM and the users who log into > machines. Both can be compromised, but the latter are much easier > and more likely to be. >=20 >=20Such compromise is not laughable or hypothetical: it happens > *constantly*. It's how kernel.org was utterly owned[1]. >=20 >=20Trusting people not to be evil is not the same as having to trust > the opsec habits of every single one of them. Trust isn't > transitive. Personally, I don't think a rogue zimoun will > suddenly decide to abuse us. I think rogues will abuse zimoun the > very first chance they get. >=20 >=20That's not a matter of degree: it's a whole different threat > model, as is injecting arbitrary binaries vs. pushing malicious > code commits. Both are bad news, but there's an order of > magnitude difference between the two. >=20 >>=20For sure, one can always abuse the trust. Based on this >> principle, we >> could stop any collaborative work right now. The real question >> is the >> evaluation of the risk of such abuse by trusted people after >> long period >> of collaboration (that=E2=80=99s what committer usually means). >=20 >=20Isn't that the kind of hands-up-in-the-air why-bother > nothing's-perfect fatalism I thought your Python quote (thanks!) > was trying to warn me about? ;-) >=20 >=20Zzz, >=20 >=20T G-R >=20 >=20[0]: That's probably no more than an optimistic human flaw on my > part and =E2=80=98disgruntled ex-whatevers=E2=80=99 are probably more o= f a threat > that most orgs dare to admit. >=20 >=20[1]: I know, ancient history, but I'm working from memory here. > I'm sure it would be trivial to find a more topical example.