From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp2 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id UAVnAmuUjWAdyQAAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 01 May 2021 19:48:27 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp2 with LMTPS id sIOmOWqUjWDoKQAAB5/wlQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 01 May 2021 17:48:26 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A31401610F for ; Sat, 1 May 2021 19:48:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:34270 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lctj7-0004D2-Rw for larch@yhetil.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 13:48:25 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55628) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lctis-0004Ce-CI for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 13:48:11 -0400 Received: from mail.zaclys.net ([178.33.93.72]:33991) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lctip-0001ru-LY for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 May 2021 13:48:09 -0400 Received: from [192.168.0.27] (82-64-145-38.subs.proxad.net [82.64.145.38]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.zaclys.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id 141Hlffb008792 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Sat, 1 May 2021 19:48:03 +0200 DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.zaclys.net 141Hlffb008792 Authentication-Results: mail.zaclys.net; spf=fail smtp.mailfrom=lle-bout@zaclys.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zaclys.net; s=default; t=1619891283; bh=jfQ4XD+5k/Z256Cw4iJK0+4LRabPA04K3U5owS+B09Q=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=LtLn9MNi6Z+DpNOzJVIYUxZsa4VSRsPPQ54xO93BjZHgQAP0u3wF4vK5mk4OZdxGY Xp7PtgBM61L5JGAa2dNE7fKrD285sUszpXOCqRGD0xgvF06XrVGCz4KLD/JvVgP2tW mHuCvb1sH3+s2W0a2Xj3q83Ji4j08EGbA8pqhHhs= Message-ID: <4b0a5a3eee7f0c2cad7ede9b31fd6d5544c0dfad.camel@zaclys.net> Subject: Re: Leaving the GNU Guix community From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?L=E9o?= Le Bouter To: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Sat, 01 May 2021 19:47:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87a6pfqj0z.fsf@nckx> References: <888c71d21bbbc8dc7e8b4d5396694c83@zaclys.net> <87a6pfqj0z.fsf@nckx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.40.0 (3.40.0-1.fc34) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=178.33.93.72; envelope-from=lle-bout@zaclys.net; helo=mail.zaclys.net X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1619891306; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=jfQ4XD+5k/Z256Cw4iJK0+4LRabPA04K3U5owS+B09Q=; b=fGVdW8cp4J5BOWcozgj8f9sMBXyshKgmweoqfIrZw7Ye87VzGCdwHQb2yafACltzDHysgP 2cd5x3IDWUNQl3HK3+5mr88vtqW99ObJIPaJA0Yzd7yw1OFLFRKaNPGePySSo80qa1TF7W Yug+P9vZraondyWYm86TTfED5KK9j6ZXBPAiK0bE1BIr+YhxlCTebxT1iCMrxFeGbzdzRZ WaEJW0cA+dke+J8dZNOuyOAFIku1yS6q0dKIZuMyneOWEgo633CEt2HnIoTdh7zC+uDIeY YfaMtNU50kehCtZyT45rQEcX5Zrw9Fk0H7TYrMF29iysEqG3Y0pCgyuwu+JSpw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1619891306; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LIjR5u9SgU40/AmVbZYyg+T4wnNvWIHa44Mz6X2NC9Ead3kblahWgYkGFYUwOszgeNkUPs TJFgarfj2YCAe9zDbcHI3SWAzp1dMnOasq4lqjQenWB5FtU0as5eL6mHmfViQvJtL7HSAX eYCxdUig9W/EaHRVc9t3yeR/fhmpWf0lJfFYfserozMpxMpTrs134dInTNZGe03PBDbom7 LZ4A0Mga5DUMSNuFweP/SBA9sHPMkUptIN+grswmvXBDW0wbGEaL006NFsHl6/IxvdPd96 cWBMHq/SFPEo5wgq8uBE1KdgSQFPeEuM7getzn3aWbIYqFNCE8kn1/mY9eF9AA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=zaclys.net header.s=default header.b=LtLn9MNi; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.16 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=zaclys.net header.s=default header.b=LtLn9MNi; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=zaclys.net; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: A31401610F X-Spam-Score: -3.16 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: rURT0AZdzBbj Hello Tobias, On Sat, 2021-05-01 at 04:34 +0200, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice wrote: > Léo, > > Leo Le Bouter 写道： > > I feel like what has happened is really a disaster, > > I'm relieved that we share, at least, this.  I think everyone > does. > > > I don't feel like contributing to GNU Guix anymore in the > > future. > > That's a great pity.  I hope to welcome you back some day.  Guix > is better off with your fixes. > > Yet I'm convinced that the decision to suspend commit access was > the right one.  It wasn't easy.  Nobody was happy about it. > > I also hope that you can accept your role in the events that lead > to it and learn from them and make adjustments. > > I'm disappointed that you still deflect the brunt of the > responsibility to others and refuse to acknowledge that this, > itself, is a problem.  Saving face consistently took precedence > over accepting feedback.  That's a dangerous blind spot to have. > I do not think that is true, I think that I do not feel welcome to acknowledge criticism when it is not written in a friendly manner (because it generates confrontation), and also I can disagree with criticism. I think I have acknowledged lots of criticism over the course of contributing to GNU Guix and this is not taken into account AT ALL, and that you think that this decision was right I think further re-inforces that I will not be contributing to GNU Guix in the future. You failed to recognize the effect of the tone in the messages, and how deeply it affects me and my ability to feel happy and also to be constructive (which includes responding in a useful way to criticism). I don't feel that I can change that. I can only survive in environments where discussion is exceptionally caring and friendly for this very reason. I feel deeply affected by everything that's said by people, even through Internet messages. I think it is a disaster that you (maintainers) choose to blame someone publicly for feeling so bad after having received messages of exceptional aggressivity. I think it is not fair and not justified. That you insist for me to reply to some aggressive message, I think that is a disaster. I think it is an horrible thing to ask to someone. > > I think that the GNU > > Guix maintainers justify unacceptable behavior and have acted > > upon > > things without understanding them, not understanding why > > incidents have > > happened > > We have a much better understanding of the *complete* situation > than you imply.  It's far too common and too convenient to claim > that people you don't agree with are (at best) uninformed. I don't think I am doing any of that and it's hurtful you say I am. I am not. I really do think that we do not understand each other, on an emotional level. > > We've certainly made mistakes over the years.  Being buggy humans > we'll be sure to make more. > > Several contributors expressed (in at least one case: severe) > unease with your attitude long before Mark sent his own unpleasant > message, and I think we did too little and waited too long to > publicly address either in a coordinated manner.  Lesson > hard-learnt. I think that there's been disagreements and that it's been difficult to handle for both me and other people. I think people must acknowledge that I can have my own way of contributing to GNU Guix that can really make sense and that I am not bound to listen to anyone's criticism if it doesnt make sense to me and that I cannot or am not willing to do the work to adapt my contributions to said criticism. If you are talking about the Zimoun case, as unfortunate as it is that they went away, I don't think it can be blamed solely on me. They also wanted to go. What I expressed earlier about their postings remains true for me. I felt harassed by their postings and that's the reason it also went off the rails. I think that there's a difference in treatment between people that contribute to GNU Guix, that not all contributors to GNU Guix are considered equal, that I have been the subject of criticism but that some other contributors to GNU Guix will not be the subject of criticism for various other reasons. I feel like I should be treated like a person with their own opinions and preferences when it comes to contributing and that the way I choose to do the contributions as long as I am the one making them should be respected and that if there's criticism it is welcome but that if I do not agree with such criticism that my disagreement be respected. As comparison, I rarely go and criticize other's work, I trust people to do the best. I know everyone goes and checks if their own contributions work great from time to time, but for that to happen you must give the authors that time. I am able to and I know everyone is able to self-criticize their work and adapt also. You just have to give trust. I have not heard many people criticize code quality or anything else when it is maintainers like Mathieu or Ludovic that broke stuff. I think it is normal to break stuff. In general, I am not interested to fit in or become someone else because of people's criticism, I am interested to be accepted as the person that I already am and want to be. Some times criticism crosses that border in that it expects me to contribute like the person who criticizes wants, and some times I purposefully do not want to contribute like that. I think it's also the reason I come to GNU Guix and not some employer, I am not interested in responding to someone else's interests if they do not make sense to me. > > > that many people have spread misinformation that other believed > > also. > > I refuse to credit this vague insinuation.  My mind was made up by > nothing but your own posts to this list and your blunt refusal to > answer questions. I think we still do not understand each other, and that I cannot possibly explain it or express it through text messages, I think it is even more of a disaster that you again insist I should be replying to anyone who's being aggressive. > > Kind regards, > > T G-R > > PS: I wanted to keep this short, but thank you for sharing your > thoughts or Free software development.  I read them with interest. With a lot of disappointment and pain, Léo