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Thu, 30 Nov 2023 06:16:29 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lendvai.name; s=protonmail; t=1701342983; x=1701602183; bh=YnnMAHn6Zg1+uyI0rPbMAMj1mdUYfUsaO5s4tq0Agcw=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=mqOIGI0tns4nUwiwKe5p7mpttHq4/rKBVfHWoWvIqPRsCaKC/bEQ5q3wYTKYZBF22 TZL5dBveWdevMXxa9ArrFzWbsA5Zbb5RP7yJ+WuJ8rFljDWKmwdKjo+FQyBG4ACG65 NPZ3IB/enEyW5QHygSbXxSOzEJNhDaEoJm6+tK4fBwaLzhaIMWFehUzNovZksqHuj5 3bu5BMcUJByZdHhUKm0cGGC2EArxgDyjmQmQQLrGUZtID6R8pl4CIFKywgLoLK73uA QEJOKLaidgoGzouo1vprvZXNVScIoJrRepcTMTfMxW/lGSwI7xLAugH/0M89NZGqZw OAFOLudyCnZ/g== Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 11:16:12 +0000 To: Felix Lechner From: Attila Lendvai Cc: Liliana Marie Prikler , Edouard Klein , guix-devel@gnu.org, =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= , Josselin Poiret Subject: Re: Syntactic Diabetes (was Re: A friendlier API for operating-system declarations) Message-ID: <4H69vnQJrUA5WrVPVfQknwCz2ymq8NFyOnp0cCuqZiUVpSAwp6QAhonzbnSpsuRZJcZUX4dmV-U-qhV7CXNH5UOaGV8IEaL2fY8qXmPnmns=@lendvai.name> In-Reply-To: <87ttp4jfiy.fsf@lease-up.com> References: <87wn377rst.fsf@rdklein.fr> <877cm6reum.fsf@rdklein.fr> <52c2337b277721108e5e7cdd6ea32e37e3c20628.camel@gmail.com> <8734wsqwrh.fsf@rdklein.fr> <33976deaf13ce785edefa6ac1b3610054dd4a031.camel@gmail.com> <87v89op6f2.fsf@rdklein.fr> <87ttp4jfiy.fsf@lease-up.com> Feedback-ID: 28384833:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.40.136; envelope-from=attila@lendvai.name; helo=mail-40136.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 7ADB831361 X-Spam-Score: -4.49 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx10.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.49 X-TUID: di+/ngLtz6EG > > the downside of generating countless macros is that they won't show up > > in backtraces, and they cannot be found when grep'ping the codebase, > > and as such make the codebase much less approachable. >=20 >=20 > Reading your words really helped me feel that I'm not alone. You more or > less summarized my feelings about the Guix codebase, which I have been > reading now for over a year. Guile's syntax features make the code more > symbolic and less approachable to newcomers. just FTR, i don't think that the guix codebase is too bad in this regard. here i just wanted to remind people to the not so obvious cost of syntactic= abstractions that should be accounted for when making decisions. introduci= ng macros that generate macros is rarely justified. in general, it's *very* valuable when stuff can be grep'ped -- and not only= for newcomers. after enough time has passed i can feel like a newcomer to = my own codebase... :) modulo the protocols that i keep while writing code. e.g. define.*whatever is a grep that i regularly employ. the pattern here i= s that although there are countless ways to define countless different stuf= f, there's a convention to stick to the define.*[name] pattern. intuitive, unique (i.e. grep'pable) names are also key to facilitate code a= pproachability, especially for abstractions that are scattered around in ma= ny source files. in some situations i even copy-paste names of abstractions= into comments for any future grep'ping to pick it up. a negative example for this in the guix codebase is the use of 'service' to= describe two rather different abstractions: a component of an OS vs. a dea= mon process run by shepherd. for a while it caused me quite some confusion. --=20 =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CThe State is that organization in society which attempts to mainta= in a monopoly of the use of force and violence in a given territorial area;= in particular, it is the only organization in society that obtains its rev= enue not by voluntary contribution or payment for services rendered but by = coercion.=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Murray N. Rothbard (1926=E2=80=931995), 'Anatomy of the State'= (1974)