Re: /run/setuid-programs via the Shepherd?

Re: /run/setuid-programs via the Shepherd?

[Juliana Sims]

Hi Felix,

You ask a really interesting question. I think run0 is a great step in 
the right direction, and I would welcome the Shepherd gaining similar 
abilities. I also think run0 is a stopgap and we can do much better. 
Let me try to explain.

As I've announced previously, I'm working on porting the Shepherd to 
the Goblins object-capability security (ocap/ocaps) library, and very 
similar thoughts have cropped up for me as well while doing this work. 
Rather than merely imitate a better sudo, though, I think it would be 
compelling to leverage the system layer to create a security barrier 
that allows ocap security at the process level. This is beyond the 
scope of my current work, so what follows are just some ponderings and 
not representative of my work on the Shepherd. As a big caveat, these 
thoughts haven't been peer reviewed, as it were, by people more 
familiar with ocap security at scale. I point that out because, as far 
as ocaps are concerned, nothing I'm proposing is a new idea, and I may 
be missing pieces of the puzzle.

First, let me define a few terms. A capability is a reference -- in the 
code sense -- to an object. An object is similar to an actor in the 
actor model but with some restrictions. What's most important is that 
these objects encapsulate state and the ability to operate on that 
state, and they can only manipulate external state through 
capabilities. An object may receive a capability in one of three ways: 
it may be created with a capability; it may be granted a capability by 
an object with a capability on it (A has a capability on B and C; A can 
grant B a capability on C); or it may create the capability itself. The 
latter mechanism is only able to create capabilities on the object 
itself or on objects upon which it has capabilities. In short, "if you 
don't have it, you can't use it." (As a critical corollary, if you *do* 
have it you *can* use it, so be careful about the capabilities you hand 
out.) The overall model is called "object-capability security" because 
its original name, "capability security," has been applied to several 
similar but distinct systems since it was first formulated, and the 
role of the object is the most important and defining feature of this 
specific model.

On to the actual idea. To summarize, in an ocap system, we invert the 
authority flow of sudo/run0. We can think of sudo as untrusted code 
claiming to act on behalf of a trustworthy user and thus being allowed 
to execute as trusted code. (This was built on top of Unix's original 
security model, knowing where every other person with access to the OS 
works, so its weaknesses are understandable.) run0, as I understand it 
from the thread you linked, improves on sudo significantly by making 
untrusted code ask trusted code to act on its behalf to perform some 
delimited action. This is much better, but still relies on the identity 
of some user who gave the code permission to act in this way. The ocap 
model is closer to run0 (run0 reminds me of an ocap pattern called a 
powerbox), but ocaps has a key difference. In an ocap system, rather 
than untrusted code asking trusted code to do some specific task, 
untrusted code is unable to do anything until trusted code gives it the 
*capability* (in both the colloquial and ocaps sense) to do so. That 
is, whereas with run0 and sudo, *untrusted* code tells *trusted* code 
*what* to do, with ocaps, *trusted* code tells *untrusted* code what 
it's *allowed* to do.

Before we can have meaningful ocap security, we must reduce or 
eliminate ambient authority. This isn't very hard anymore, thanks in 
large part to systemd and changes it encouraged in the Linux kernel, 
like cgroups. run0 significantly reduces ambient authority -- yay! Guix 
has facilities towards this end as well -- the least authority wrapper 
comes up frequently. The harder part is bootstrapping capability 
grants. If we endeavor to build ocap security on top of an access 
control list (ACL) system, we frequently need something like a powerbox 
at some point. But if the ACL system in question is Guix, and the 
powerbox in question is (inside) the Shepherd, we can go much further 
towards proper capability flows. We can take `guix system reconfigure' 
(or `guix home reconfigure' for user processes) as the root of our 
capability bootstrap process. For example, capabilities could be 
granted at object creation by passing them around in system 
configurations which are then instantiated by the Guix build daemon at 
reconfigure/build time. At runtime, the Shepherd, which would receive 
capabilities at build time as well, could spawn processes in "dead 
worlds" with only the capabilities they need. Outside of Guix, Shepherd 
configuration files would be the root of these flows.

You may immediately notice this idea is rough. There is a circular 
dependency in that we need all relevant capabilities for `system 
reconfigure'/Shepherd configuration if we want to make it the root of 
our trust tree. As I gestured to previously, ocaps are working against 
the underlying problems of ACLs. I don't have good answers here. Unless 
and until we have absolute control over our computing environment from 
the bottom up (did someone say "user freedom?"), we can only offer some 
subset of the security guarantees of object-capability security. Still, 
that subset is more ergonomic and powerful than ACLs can offer. Just 
imagine never needing to invoke sudo (or run0) because every program 
has precisely the authority it needs precisely when it needs it. Such a 
world is possible. With a Goblins-based Shepherd and the cooperation of 
Guix, we could get quite close to that world while still building on 
top of ACLs.

To be clear, there's still quite a lot of work left to do to make all 
the necessary pieces to begin building this vision. But work on those 
pieces is well under way.

To bring this email back to directly the topic you raise, a Shepherd 
run0 is complementary to a future ocaps-ification of the broader 
process environment; they support and reinforce each other. 
Furthermore, with ocaps, the Shepherd could grow beyond run0. I 
personally think this is the direction Guix and the Shepherd should go.

WDYT?

Best,
Juli

Re: /run/setuid-programs via the Shepherd?

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi Juliana,

Juliana Sims <juli@incana.org> skribis:

> To bring this email back to directly the topic you raise, a Shepherd
> run0 is complementary to a future ocaps-ification of the broader
> process environment; they support and reinforce each
> other. Furthermore, with ocaps, the Shepherd could grow beyond run0. I
> personally think this is the direction Guix and the Shepherd should
> go.

I very much agree with the direction!

One thing that’s still unclear to me is how to get a “true” capability
system running on top of POSIX or Linux.  Capsicum was one answer to
that; the Hurd is another one, where system core is ocap but there’s a
“POSIX personality” where you get the usual POSIXy ambient authority
(and processes, and file descriptors, etc.) that allows you to run
applications that target POSIX.

I haven’t read about run0 yet, but like sudo, it’s very much built to
let you run regular POSIX/Linux applications.  I suppose we could
gradually develop ocap applications that use Goblins/Shepherd-specific
interfaces with fine-grain authority.  But we may need to come up with
much less fancy approaches for “legacy” (!) POSIX code.

WDYT?

Ludo’.

Re: /run/setuid-programs via the Shepherd?

[Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

Hi Juli!

On Sat, Jun 08 2024, Juliana Sims wrote:

> To bring this email back to directly the topic you raise

Thank you for your most substantive and thoughtful reply!

Unfortunately, I do not know enough to contribute, but I forgot to
mention my immediate motivation: The handling of setuid/setgid
executables in Guix is awkward because of the store.

For example, we must hardcode some paths to /run/setuid-program/... as
in this yet-to-be-accepted patch for OpenSMTPd. [1]

Kind regards
Felix

P.S. Your mail headers included "Reply-To: 87plssoj2z.fsf@lease-up.com";
I took the liberty to copy you on this message.

[1] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/71613

Re: /run/setuid-programs via the Shepherd?

[Juliana Sims]

Hi Felix,
> 
> ... we must hardcode some paths to /run/setuid-program/... as
> in this yet-to-be-accepted patch for OpenSMTPd. [1]
...

 > [1] https://issues.guix.gnu.org/71613

Oh, this is quite a tricky issue... I'm opposed to packaging software 
in Guix in such a way as to rely on the conventions of a system 
installation -- or even to assume what software a user chooses for 
their particular system installation -- because that undermines the 
core principles of statelessness and user freedom. I don't know enough 
about this problem to offer good solutions, honestly. For the 
aforementioned reasons, I don't think the Shepherd is the place to 
solve it. Or rather, if the problem is solved there (no reason it can't 
be), there will still need to be accomodations for those who don't want 
to rely on Shepherd.

> P.S. Your mail headers included "Reply-To: 
> 87plssoj2z.fsf@lease-up.com";
> I took the liberty to copy you on this message.

Thanks! I don't know how email headers work XD I subscribe to the 
guix-devel digest so when I want to respond to a particular message, I 
copy over the "to" and "cc" and "subject" manually and then I go grab 
the message ID of the particular message I'm replying to and put that 
in Geary's "reply to" field in the hopes of not breaking threading. 
Does this not work properly? (feel free to reply out-of-band if there's 
more to be said)

-Juli

/run/setuid-programs via the Shepherd?

[Felix Lechner]

Hi,

Could the ideas around systemd's new run0 tool [1][2] which executes
privileged programs via the init process, also help Guix?

Kind regards
Felix

[1] https://mastodon.social/@pid_eins/112353324518585654
[2] https://lwn.net/Articles/971866/