From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id KPNsBNfNFGJCBwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:49:43 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id iJ82AdfNFGKtGQEAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:49:43 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75DBF3DBA7 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:49:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:60180 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMTfX-0000Z3-Cv for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:49:29 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50680) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMTe7-0000Kl-Ej for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:47:58 -0500 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com ([66.39.4.99]:41614) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMTdv-00049O-MN for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:47:51 -0500 Received: from mail1.g12.pair.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B40371E660; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtpclient.apple (w135107.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp [121.1.135.107]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail1.g12.pair.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CEB4774570D; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 06:47:26 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F2D53E05-7BCA-4D77-BC66-5C271242CA84 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Yasuaki Kudo Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Documentation of what is appropriate for #guix? Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 20:47:23 +0900 Message-Id: <3DE50B35-F5C5-4BC9-8908-1B220181AE93@yasuaki.com> References: <746FC12F-B974-4A59-83CF-8FA848795D37@teulu.org> In-Reply-To: <746FC12F-B974-4A59-83CF-8FA848795D37@teulu.org> To: Paul Jewell X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19D52) Received-SPF: none client-ip=66.39.4.99; envelope-from=yasu@yasuaki.com; helo=mail1.g12.pair.com X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.6 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645530582; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post; bh=NVx3iyrtwCXLXkoWuGyF9YLRK72aSdyJfcq7MUjlaLY=; b=A70Cdv1aqHCW+Woii4+JUUg3i5uUXNGw1K/YJN08l0BRZDzAfdx69Yobd27+mH4sJgBL4Y +Z4o5OTK9QW3YT3Yp+KZjgG5LPlC9WAHggwemliSnh7QJaDhrl4/6ey5yN0J2cirLYYy2F dIzsdkHeu35OpRBMS1LPvAxVMuZpbPezGnh9G+AkWFEwEAgCJOuIAEmvsF3uZbKqX4SkWW E07TOzZhxkRXzgwnPQPNY3iHh7Fwn6dXegUJXDYfmK64itMSPjF//GHRJo18Dt5JR5z5ON qwT+bKOAP2Q8YE5qEH87tCqPCi0KUQHJysR1h/62tq5mRKFdaCveAx1K+Ubixw== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645530582; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=OeKJA8e9FXxQlzFvDfW2Oou3wfFnYrnHGJsOFYapViTVXYfQq9FqpIK7DJ05Rtaf2lWIwb epH8UeioJSw0gAsAODHS1d7kkNsb6aPJP4hm0mIEwZ6Hd8RI3BWRCao620E09503ia2sMW Np6IWSZy4iRAwHsRYyihHId0piuStyqU00LaT2Yvedo3t7s/c0Sc9ho0PdvCiFktLu6ogf OIexof7kDyOk1f4+wkRd18gtyCXNNn/Atud366Fx3j2V4kKcUz+pZpdpb6atVz7ySJnAz7 TFZ8VVGx7f9xZ5yIPt3bvcadtq5sruktZOveXpwrN6eC9h4Mvv55rLNoGU2ScA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.73 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 75DBF3DBA7 X-Spam-Score: -1.73 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: A+cbpVUukdtO --Apple-Mail-F2D53E05-7BCA-4D77-BC66-5C271242CA84 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If we were to set up a separate relaxed Guix community that accommodates all= forms of corruption, one problem would be the impediments that would exist i= n communication, especially if the original Guix takes hostile and non-compr= omising attitude, I think. If a question arises from that downgraded community how to do this and that,= precisely to accommodate some unaccountable binary black box software, the= chances of getting helpful answers may not be so high from the original Gui= x community. =F0=9F=98=85 It is a difficult question - even in the real world the similarities abound.= While it is easy to ignore and isolate North Korea, a country that offers= no useful commodity for export (or maybe it does, but let's say, for the sa= ke of argument), countries like Japan have no problem importing Saudi Arabia= n oil. Ethics and human rights are thrown out the window - oil is considered= far more important. I tend to take the position of strategically 'not caring' (e.g. https://you= tu.be/Blz_Eu00Kbw ) Maybe someone like me is called a Libertarian? I am not sure... (for the re= cord, my political philosophy seems to be called Anarcho-Syndicalism =F0=9F=98= =84) But I still think a parallel community might be in order =F0=9F=98=84 -Yasu > On Feb 22, 2022, at 07:36, Paul Jewell wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On 21 Feb 2022, at 19:10, raingloom =20 >=20 >> By the way, I think it's kind of silly that that is completely banned >> from discussion. When I wanted help on getting my GPU to work, I >> mentioned for reference purposes that I tried the proprietary driver >> from The Forbidden Channel - and was subsequently warned that I must >> not do that. >=20 > I understand that the position taken by guix is more nuanced than that. Th= e project doesn=E2=80=99t seek to control what you run on your computer, but= won=E2=80=99t support your choice to run non-free software in the official c= hannels.=20 >=20 >> Which I find ridiculous. You can't even discuss results >> obtained by running closed source drivers and firmware, so how do you >> debug the libre firmwares and drivers, when you have nothing to compare >> against? > But you can discuss these results elsewhere. >=20 >> Also, I think people who want to overwhelmingly use free software but >> need proprietary drivers for their computer to function should be >> offered better help than "buy a new computer". >=20 > I kind of agree with you here. I don=E2=80=99t want to obsolete perfectly v= iable hardware, but instead want to use it for its whole life. Next time I a= m in the market for new hardware, then I will have the ability to run libre-= software as a pre-condition for purchase. >=20 >> I think The Forbidden Channel should be raised to a status similar to >> the AUR: it's recognized and its existence is documented, but all >> responsibility is very explicitly disclaimed and support is relegated >> to special channels. >=20 > Users will find it even the way it is configured today. I don=E2=80=99t th= ink it needs any sort of official recognition or promotion, as that will go a= gainst the project goals/rules (as I understand it). We should always be awa= re of the insidious nature of proprietary firmware/software, and work to eli= minate the need for it, rather than indicating that its use is acceptable as= a first choice. >=20 >=20 > Best regards, > Paul --Apple-Mail-F2D53E05-7BCA-4D77-BC66-5C271242CA84 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If w= e were to set up a separate relaxed Guix community that accommodates all for= ms of corruption, one problem would be the impediments that would exist in c= ommunication, especially if the original Guix takes hostile and non-compromi= sing attitude, I think.

If a= question arises from that downgraded community how to do this and that, pre= cisely to accommodate some unaccountable  binary black box software, th= e chances of getting helpful answers may not be so high from the original Gu= ix community. =F0=9F=98=85

= It is a difficult question - even in the real world the similarities abound.=   While it is easy to ignore and isolate North Korea, a country that o= ffers no useful commodity for export (or maybe it does, but let's say, for t= he sake of argument), countries like Japan have no problem importing Saudi A= rabian oil. Ethics and human rights are thrown out the window - oil is consi= dered far more important.

I= tend to take the position of strategically 'not caring'  (e.g. https://youtu.be/Blz_Eu00Kbw = ;)

Maybe someone like me is= called a Libertarian?  I am not sure... (for the record, my political p= hilosophy seems to be called Anarcho-Syndicalism =F0=9F=98=84)

But I still think a parallel community m= ight be in order =F0=9F=98=84

-Yasu


On Feb 22, 2022, at 07:36, Paul Jewell <paul@teulu.org> wr= ote:

=EF= =BB=BF

On 2= 1 Feb 2022, at 19:10, raingloom <raingloom@riseup.net>

By the way, I thin= k it's kind of silly that that is completely banned
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">from discussion. When I wanted help on gettin= g my GPU to work, I
m= entioned for reference purposes that I tried the proprietary driver
from The Forbidden Channel - a= nd was subsequently warned that I must
not do that.

I understand that the position taken by guix is more nuanced than that. The= project doesn=E2=80=99t seek to control what you run on your computer, but w= on=E2=80=99t support your choice to run non-free software in the official ch= annels.

Which I f= ind ridiculous. You can't even discuss results
obtained by running closed source drivers and firm= ware, so how do you
d= ebug the libre firmwares and drivers, when you have nothing to compare
against?
But you can discuss these results elsewhere.

Also, I think people who want to ove= rwhelmingly use free software but
need proprietary drivers for their computer to function should b= e
offered better help= than "buy a new computer".

I k= ind of agree with you here. I don=E2=80=99t want to obsolete perfectly viabl= e hardware, but instead want to use it for its whole life. Next time I am in= the market for new hardware, then I will have the ability to run libre-soft= ware as a pre-condition for purchase.

I think The Forbidden Channel should be raised to a sta= tus similar to
the AU= R: it's recognized and its existence is documented, but all
responsibility is very explicitly dis= claimed and support is relegated
to special channels.

Users will find it even the way it is configured today. I don=E2=80=99t t= hink it needs any sort of official recognition or promotion, as that will go= against the project goals/rules (as I understand it). We should always be a= ware of the insidious nature of proprietary firmware/software, and work to e= liminate the need for it, rather than indicating that its use is acceptable a= s a first choice.


Best reg= ards,
Paul
= --Apple-Mail-F2D53E05-7BCA-4D77-BC66-5C271242CA84--