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Content-Language: en-US To: Wojtek Kosior , Liliana Marie Prikler Cc: "(" , Katherine Cox-Buday , Simon Tournier , Maxim Cournoyer , Saku Laesvuori , Attila Lendvai , Andreas Enge , guix-devel@gnu.org References: <20230827135726.y33t55w4cvq6zsvb@X-kone> <874jkift8v.fsf@gmail.com> <867cp4sj7k.fsf@gmail.com> <38242808-2f06-4674-3842-aea1a5378d05@gmail.com> <87a5u0o3z2.fsf@disroot.org> <3b274703acaf446ec678e96c9d875c5d6b1a3e17.camel@gmail.com> <20230906221012.495fb73d.koszko@koszko.org> From: MSavoritias In-Reply-To: <20230906221012.495fb73d.koszko@koszko.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Last-TLS-Session-Version: TLSv1.3 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=81.95.52.48; envelope-from=email@msavoritias.me; helo=mail.webarch.email X-Spam_score_int: -31 X-Spam_score: -3.2 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.2 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_INVALID=0.1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-1.473, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -3.61 X-Spam-Score: -3.61 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 3824F550F0 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx2.migadu.com X-TUID: TLYUsITnQBnF On 9/6/23 23:10, Wojtek Kosior via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. wrote: > Hello, > > I wanted to add to this thread my 2 cents. As a person who has recently > (last months) made the first attempts at contributing. > > To me, registrations and reliance on JS had always been an obstacle to > using web-based forges. This is one of the reasons I haven't been > contributing to existing projects in the past. > > With Guix this issue is gone but there's also another thing that > incentivized me — that, since joining the Guix mailing lists, I am > seeing activity all the time, right at my fingertips (because I have my > email client opened most of the time). > > So far I have sent patches 4 times. Once it was a simple update that got > accepted quickly, once I was addressing a problem that turned out to be > better solvable another way and 2 submissions are still waiting for > someone to review them. > > Although I had to learn to use `git format-patch` and related tools, I > don't consider it a problem. Actually, I wanted to learn email-based > workflow anyway because it seems to be a more KISS way of software > development. > > The amount of new stuff to learn can, however, be a bit overwhelming. I > did learn to use git to send emails but haven't yet started using any of > the templating packages for Emacs that were recommended in Guix > documentation. It would be just too much to process at once. > > Do I think Guix has a problem with cognitive overhead? Not at all. > Rather, it seems to be addressing the problems really well. > 1. It makes it easy to hack on itself without the need to clone the > repo first. That's what helped me get familiar with it before I > could even try to contribute anything. > 2. It, by default, updates to the most up-to-date version. > 3. It has some detailed documentation. > 4. It eases the setting up of one's development environment. > > I fact, I suspect the email-based workflow might be automatically > filtering out some bad submissions that would have been made otherwise. > The geeky nature of the project does put it in a kind of a niche where > only geeks dwell. But this is somewhat benefitial because geeks are > those who can build it. Arguments that its a good thing its hard for people to contribute to the project don't really help. Because among others it promotes gate-keeping and elitism. Im not saying you specifically are that person, but that is how a person that wants to contribute will get the argument. The part about email working for you, I am glad it does :) We need to care for the people that may like a different style of contributing too though. Because the more people guix can attract the better for the project. MSavoritias > > Lastly, sorry if something I wrote is a duplicate of other's opinions — > the thread got soooo long it'd be hard to read through 100% of it > > Best, > Wojtek > > -- (sig_start) > website: https://koszko.org/koszko.html > fingerprint: E972 7060 E3C5 637C 8A4F 4B42 4BC5 221C 5A79 FD1A > follow me on Fediverse: https://friendica.me/profile/koszko/profile > > ♥ R29kIGlzIHRoZXJlIGFuZCBsb3ZlcyBtZQ== | ÷ c2luIHNlcGFyYXRlZCBtZSBmcm9tIEhpbQ== > ✝ YnV0IEplc3VzIGRpZWQgdG8gc2F2ZSBtZQ== | ? U2hhbGwgSSBiZWNvbWUgSGlzIGZyaWVuZD8= > -- (sig_end) > > > On Tue, 05 Sep 2023 22:43:04 +0200 Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > >> Am Dienstag, dem 05.09.2023 um 19:40 +0100 schrieb (: >>> Liliana Marie Prikler writes: >>>> Uhm, we have snippets? >>> Well, those are exclusive to Emacs :)  And without regard to /that/ >>> issue, I do think that there's a problem if the commit format is so >>> complex that it's not trivial for anyone new to the project to write >>> them out manually. >> By definition, no amount of typing is non-trivial, safe for the empty >> amount, which good luck trying to commit your changes by pure mouse >> movements, I guess? >> >> Now, if you excuse my French, I think the problem isn't really as much >> that people struggle to type out the perfect ChangeLog on the first >> try, which also makes it odd to request a linter. Bear in mind that >> committers will sign off anything that appears convincing enough, even >> if there are smaller mistakes in the message. Trust me, I've been >> there and seen that; and also done it myself. >> >> Instead, we have seen in this thread appeals to age, appeals to >> perceived lack of personal benefit, and now appeals to typing effort, >> none of which really make that great of an argument against the >> ChangeLog style, especially when they come in combination with a >> refusal to make use of already provided tools. I think we're starting >> to see the moving of the goal post as the actual game here. >> >> Maybe it's time to take a step back and instead of asking “How can we >> decrease the cognitive overhead for contributors?”, we should perhaps >> ask “For which contributors do we want to/can we decrease the cognitive >> overhead?” We have drifted much from the original post that discussed >> moms with full-time jobs, who struggle to do “difficult” tasks >> (simplified wording; may change the meaning of the OP a little). Now, >> I personally struggle to see how your personal preference for >> communication media, commit message style, and other things that were >> discussed in any of the preceding threads actually correlate with being >> a parent. However, I do know that with its 150 million users, most >> people of the world don't have a Github account. Being one of the 4 >> billion email users out there is a comparably low barrier of entry >> imho. So, whose cognitive overhead do you want to reduce (besides the >> obvious "my own", which everyone always tries)? >>