From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id oHUpIJPn3GIzdgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2022 08:32:51 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id 8HQgIJPn3GJt0gAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2022 08:32:51 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E05F8655C for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2022 08:32:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53186 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oFVAY-0001KK-2S for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2022 02:32:50 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48402) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oFV8T-0001K8-M8 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2022 02:30:41 -0400 Received: from mail-ej1-x641.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::641]:41852) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oFV8R-0001lG-MA for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2022 02:30:41 -0400 Received: by mail-ej1-x641.google.com with SMTP id z23so15078957eju.8 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2022 23:30:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to:references :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VyT4e1AZtX0+mXCJkIJSX+kJMAF97GkVg8elxM7Af/M=; b=QL0/kVJEXyGPjs5Q6Ja1QuNrgV90HQ8XiIEYPeRQO+HTZJPO1p6ACt3CcUqj0JcNWk aw0Jf7nvUI/3fJhc84l5+QJhOsRS9Wq5bI+kCG/+RBjplxqPm1KY5km0dF4CrPu4CCOr uanwjGH9KO56CYQwihW/s7JgPgeS9sZGVVUHnbN4t1T92ZHIC7FTiy0YulZkIDuu7cVL ILbxFVK6tTdkD1qwwvwngkuiLvtkt6l4AR7E79Br0VmXVVQgBRevWAe+Qo7G1AAMiz9h 0hxuAXzYaIyNTcP2Hmhc5yXryrd7TvSzH0I5k7/36ex1tkVXpFov0k4Rucx5WUD2ZQG4 V12A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:date:in-reply-to :references:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VyT4e1AZtX0+mXCJkIJSX+kJMAF97GkVg8elxM7Af/M=; b=GORu5LLySa1q2a2KGS6z30clvChIa4zI+g0tJhWscKSFHZDxmiYSyYg01tFKqIfgGb S28kfYjGdqYvKpAWK3Ty2H+eezURGLU5hieAeUcASZCuQw0pjRrAOAN1tuk8OAux+7rf LQrKnioTns4U13tui+5FZyYRgfwP5PZ+taXJNYoKU/ScpK6qQ5YzJIvVTd/V7ZmrjTim R/n7PHwoDkF0KKyziGXnLtvEiICfPhJt6ZIUFImewH190AmDl7X5OLi0HROuEMNOTjOU Ga2Tz8i/pyWDMt0s5I+Rxu/ySGk/LBjPM5xZDPpu6C+10t6weukcOMfSF6V2PvD/ysCp 1bNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora/kKE65WmV2TsogU0H3AX5I3Oky1z5cV184sP4mVw2xwZRs7gWF B2ZTKNGaJMxSyC7+Mq6yjEE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1saFC13+mMRHa6H5lpbhCo4OqCXH+DKh+60G1YaEZ84v/eNAx64AU9TbatCC6JUhHAZ/aqcKA== X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:9bd1:b0:72b:302:2b88 with SMTP id de17-20020a1709069bd100b0072b03022b88mr5467629ejc.250.1658644237575; Sat, 23 Jul 2022 23:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nijino.fritz.box (85-127-52-93.dsl.dynamic.surfer.at. [85.127.52.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m18-20020aa7c492000000b0043ba45cec41sm5174914edq.36.2022.07.23.23.30.36 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 23 Jul 2022 23:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <303407d9f0936d7f5bdf1bb0c7e59196f91ce0bf.camel@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Guix-devel Digest, Vol 109, Issue 56 From: Liliana Marie Prikler To: kiasoc5 , Maxime Devos Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Sun, 24 Jul 2022 08:30:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20220723225226.11f9a793@aria> References: <20220722171209.312e2822@aria> <7000e16f-54df-60a6-031f-699ecca64d0d@telenet.be> <20220723225226.11f9a793@aria> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.42.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::641; envelope-from=liliana.prikler@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x641.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1658644371; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=VyT4e1AZtX0+mXCJkIJSX+kJMAF97GkVg8elxM7Af/M=; b=fZJbe+dKWufrijNIf9mwOq0p6CZPDG8yI+wfaSK+6vJB9SNTwsDPg2YX5fFBcTA8FpztZu 4bcqLBgmGJm3/si1NvGEYXsXnux09tFGsRSNm+c5oacCGu+yM0Iw6drJKy63AFur0TI9oP hP2PGvj2krCzR4+jn+cFoJybMY0PKnylagj9LX19lzyGfINP/SHSer+TI3NILaV2wBDglc IlzS7yMQy7hJ9ANdTN+LSfxEGxFHB31XlKXZ+0+MtwyGjPTYFgSf9iX1nxW9wbMYV0LhYA A0bWfqYV226iZ9uLFXOT8Y9Xp5BVvFxmbZKzBE0HgpxQHgfTkAGJWuqgUoNA6w== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1658644371; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=LkyyHq+l7qf3cVNKAzZ+GG/h90EER5k6D4RoLClNGK1g6Q2iElGlsezT4hxkGrh90AQUpT METGOGzI1im3v+u2rXVr3STcfHorBHUqrsHdklCdX/BOLeO2EAwjUgFcYOirmaHUqCdCaG aiH6vFq0uayxW4hs5hvGqNikEIaqXV7B15L+mWeFlfmNPPnzmlOesJ4IxtLtqQy66YuM7j lAtZpIxfcGgLyfBotu3hDuvSBmizBDkfLakb3yVE0w78bg17tISysEaeDn5n+f7T4ymYSk yVe49ZPv3B4SGrfrTa4iED0WrO7ZJZcHmJZWxT/AVu2p8JY9zMYJUzHJiVXrIw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="QL0/kVJE"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.43 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b="QL0/kVJE"; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: E05F8655C X-Spam-Score: -2.43 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: zIBqsH8DuVcT Hi, Am Samstag, dem 23.07.2022 um 22:52 +0000 schrieb kiasoc5: > On Fri, Jul 22 2022, 07:16:59 PM +0200 > Maxime Devos wrote: > > > On 22-07-2022 19:12, kiasoc5 wrote: > > > We could have packages recommend other packages to make this > > > discovery easier for users, like Arch's opt-depends.  > > > > This sounds like my previous proposal to me: > > > > > Alternatively, packages could have an additional set of inputs > > > (development-inputs?) for this use case, only added for "guix > > > shell > > > -D" and "guix environment", though then the build environment and > > > "guix shell -D the-package" would diverge further.   > > except it has a more precise semantics than Arch's, or did you have > > something different in mind? > > To me as a user, "guix shell -D package" means "install everything to > /build/ the package" and "guix shell package" means "install > everything to /use/ the package". We could make it even more > granular: > > 1. Minimal dependencies for build time (native-inputs) > 2. Maximal dependencies for build time (development-inputs) > 3. Minimal dependencies for runtime (inputs + propagated-inputs) > 4. Maximal dependencies for runtime (optdepends) > > Deciding what is minimal/maximal is the issue. For instance should we > build manpages, which might pull in more dependencies (Crux omits > them)? > Should we compile with every optional flag enabled, which also > might pull in more dependencies (like Arch)? Perhaps a policy or > standard would be helpful to decide how much we need, if we need more > levels of distinction. Minimal vs. maximal "runtime" dependencies are not really an issue in Guix. If anything, you splinter off a -minimal variant if a) it suffices for building dependant packages or b) it's required for bootstrapping. For "build" time, the usual policy is to include everything used in the actual build to the extent possible (for example, if an optional set of tests requires a hard to bootstrap package, it is fine to skip those, but ideally that should be noted). Also, you need both native-inputs and inputs at build time. Now, the issue with development-inputs is two-fold. First, it assumes that native-inputs + inputs always suffice for building the package, but that ignores the fact that we're sometimes using bootstrapped autotools or similar which don't exist if you develop from git. This is already mentioned elsewhere as an issue that ought to be tackled by "always" bootstrapping autotools etc., thus exercising the full build. Second – the debate of this topic – is that development-inputs does not include all the inputs a developer might actually want, e.g. linters and formatters that don't run at build time, but you might nonetheless use through some special command while developing the package. To this I want to pose a simple question: Many packages include internationalization in their repositories, and a developer might want to also act as translator (particularly if English is not their native language). Should we therefore include each and every po-file editor in development inputs? My personal opinion is that that'd be silly and the developer is better served by making their own decisions as to which tools to invoke. There might perhaps be a statement made in the case of particular build systems that encode these "developer inputs", but I for one question this practice. Cheers