From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms9.migadu.com with LMTPS id KFFoHj4hLWQ2PwEASxT56A (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 05 Apr 2023 09:20:30 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id KDGXHj4hLWQBRAAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Wed, 05 Apr 2023 09:20:30 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C990167FB for ; Wed, 5 Apr 2023 09:20:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pjxRA-0002rZ-8N; Wed, 05 Apr 2023 03:20:09 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pjxR7-0002rP-Os for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Apr 2023 03:20:06 -0400 Received: from mail-4323.proton.ch ([185.70.43.23]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pjxR4-0006ef-Ib for guix-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Apr 2023 03:20:05 -0400 Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2023 07:19:52 +0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lendvai.name; s=protonmail2; t=1680679199; x=1680938399; bh=/U5Y/T90N532FbGy63GUxJxfcIzZgjFj2upeI4toJ24=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=VRRVtH49ySBJxSCrh4HXQOb2GihMhfROEhYU8I56wo/X4apc0WrnQLRL89vl/f+Hu +L6p/jrOZzYWc6Co2z0FZOM3u5PwMNP2Kdd2WT5biHpKJJR/BBgaRA1sstzUVYNLG1 dXoX1leFxkx6L4t+LNAD9SR9bwcHCXW0/GdmI+OwkWrsPPTh2FGECrKuln/BlqLOcX DiHBSuRWaLqslfBJOhQA/ve/sGtCAsn82LUjfbZlgRtWiWVoqif8ypRb0kKMVfXIjv ToUVCk+FDN8m8u+uNqEP6hEvnllCfdZlwPszaud2REz/Mf8C6z6No02bR8tsNB9eVK TdfCsj7rpKQJg== To: Maxime Devos From: Attila Lendvai Cc: Vijaya Anand , pukkamustard , guix-devel@gnu.org Subject: Re: [GSoC 23] distributed substitutes, cost of storage Message-ID: <2qVt2V-_3JyLpge73LJbfw6V2Ywpv2MaCSNOz2c0DsGCPbHu0YrFeogUyzh3PibpcwnYlR4WkCUKlCfAXQkwpUg9Mgwm5H6b1h2zxUgFJ8Y=@lendvai.name> In-Reply-To: References: <543c3687-43c5-02d9-cc3a-8e62435ffd95@telenet.be> Feedback-ID: 28384833:user:proton MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.43.23; envelope-from=attila@lendvai.name; helo=mail-4323.proton.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Country: US X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1680679230; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=CnSDrzKkQJRiGwTAu5P+tsixq+iov2GM3bfMrDla2ClvxbeJnZf0rAaBDAIAEMkwaWICjK Kr1oKbJS1KLg6sVHQqc3wCqdxV1IQ/PV3IrJ3D2UjK2bYPPRaOEj2xxomZg/vo+u/5AGVf ufBL98dlSGHodxxmF+SZAf5fgSGeo9FLgkmHNmgEvq0UWCKOw93mrw8NypOnFRVqnrDWZ4 33tyN+7uqiMkRP0Hk0+NLkeHJ4S1Mz08v+M7NJL7kN1t23n3rw7CKXJUEYBb1amPFvk/IX 5cC46Sm+3nlu8Ww1m2xwjqSmqQeA7z+Jt/o53Mruyin3cr95juBzABU7Cosxhg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=lendvai.name header.s=protonmail2 header.b=VRRVtH49; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1680679230; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/U5Y/T90N532FbGy63GUxJxfcIzZgjFj2upeI4toJ24=; b=na4JQxHCQjcSTxsSHhLWpgi0xCAv4MOa0p9+32DxC3gktJUXFk4CCr2JlKs7aTzAsUJjPF qn0cia1JzGOBK+b+pTX+R1VUZxiF+MaQoEgrdCGNMkJ6KLptF7lVBS8D4CjzFM5bbcCh0I LFcMuwqmkV8VCF3jZO/8GU53WRowC7YF3vbTbomgGRNooCI2YVJ74TjjKbvmJVw8gX5Jp8 WDrYGex1UcY3z7lO9XDSXTNyCn7w4UIvAyCutHK1sRXdWKgRj2SA/cdUdoAO3PZeVlGQIv L7C7aZ3R9PnWQISoSArHulqBmjTFu8zwmizT4GXC8uN+VJFRJpDR1jzXiEAing== X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.81 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=lendvai.name header.s=protonmail2 header.b=VRRVtH49; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Spam-Score: -5.81 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 4C990167FB X-TUID: XiOJbXufkWte thanks for the detailed elaboration Maxime! prior to reading your email i was blind to the (rather obvious) fact that t= he current Guix servers are already run by someone (a peer), and they consu= me quite some resources, and it's currently financed through donations. considering this, i now find it reasonable to have the resharing enabled by= default. thanks for fixing this glitch in my model of reality, and sorry f= or being too dim here! > Also, this crypto coin balance problem can be avoided by simply not > basing your P2P system on money (crypto coins or otherwise); it's a > problem that those systems invented for theirselves. the root problem is efficient ways of locking out non-cooperating agents fr= om the fruits of the cooperation. using a balance sheet, and monetary settl= ements above a certain threshold, is one attempt at solving this task. it's= yet to be seen which solution will survive this evolutionary landscape. > ... it appears that your view is that it's ok to spend resources of > other people even without trying to reciprocate (), and that it is > unreasonable to expect reciprocation by default? no. i just lacked the necessary level of understanding of the terrain here. > () I don't consider Swarm to be a P2P system -- Swarm by design and > intentionally actively maintains a class distinction between customers > (people paying for storage and uploading) and, let's say, entrepreneurs > (people getting paid for storage and downloading). While sometimes a > customer might also be an entrepreneur, by this inherent difference > between customers and entrepreneurs in Swarm, by definition they aren't > peers. in the model proposed by Swarm every participant plays by the same rules. a= nd on top of that, as long as someone's use of the shared resources is bala= nced with their contribution to the cooperation, then there are no monetary= transactions involved. i don't see how this wouldn't qualify as p2p. the only "class distinctions" i see here is the issuance of their crypto to= ken, and the "unfair advantage" of the early investors and the founders (ex= cept the disadvantage of those who may end up losing their invested time/mo= ney if the project fails to deliver). > That's =E2=80=98consent=E2=80=99 the same way that cookie banners without= a "Reject" > button () are consent. It's certainly =E2=80=98Informed=E2=80=99 and it's= useful to > warn people with low or expensive bandwidth to minimize the bandwidth > limits in the GNUnet configuration, but to call it =E2=80=98consent= =E2=80=99 is > doublespeak. I would prefer to not have doublespeak and instead to be > honest that it's a requirement for installing Guix instead of twisting > things into =E2=80=98consent=E2=80=99. i lost you here, and -- possibly due to that -- i find the doublespeak refe= rence unfair. consent means that i understand what's happening, and i agree to it, while = i have the option to reject the situation/association without major harms t= o my interests. if i'm aware that Guix will use my upstream (think of metered connections),= and i install it anyway, and then i don't turn this feature off... then by= those actions i implicitly consent to this happening. it's somewhat tangential here, but the "reject cookies button" is not alway= s a viable option. sometimes in life the only option besides agreeing to so= mething offered is to "close the browser tab"; i.e. stop associating, which= is not installing Guix in this context, which is not a major hindrance to = anyone.. (although, this is arguable... :) --=20 =E2=80=A2 attila lendvai =E2=80=A2 PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39 -- =E2=80=9CWar is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, ea= sily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one inter= national in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in = dollars and the losses in lives.=E2=80=9D =09=E2=80=94 Smedley Butler (1881=E2=80=931940), 'War is a racket' (1935), = US Marine major general (highest rank at that time)