From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp0 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms11 with LMTPS id QJa9NO2/6F86eQAA0tVLHw (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:10:05 +0000 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp0 with LMTPS id WBXVMO2/6F8YGQAA1q6Kng (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:10:05 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1995E9402A2 for ; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:10:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost ([::1]:39096 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ktZYR-000544-Nj for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 12:10:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46958) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ktZXh-00053v-5u for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 12:09:17 -0500 Received: from relay10.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.178.230]:39247) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ktZXe-0004DY-ME for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 12:09:16 -0500 Received: from [192.168.2.70] (bras-vprn-ckvlon0125w-lp130-02-174-89-20-211.dsl.bell.ca [174.89.20.211]) (Authenticated sender: rg@raghavgururajan.name) by relay10.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AFB1E240008; Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:09:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Linux-Libre-LTS To: Mark H Weaver , guix-devel@gnu.org References: <877dp7ik5v.fsf@netris.org> From: Raghav Gururajan Autocrypt: addr=rg@raghavgururajan.name; keydata= LS0tLS1CRUdJTiBQR1AgUFVCTElDIEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCgptRE1FWDJaQ0pCWUpLd1lC QkFIYVJ3OEJBUWRBZGlVSzMza21sMmRZanJXaWRscjQvdjBwbWpwVXY3aE9zQk4vCm9TbDV3 eDYwTDFKaFoyaGhkaUJIZFhKMWNtRnFZVzRnS0ZKSEtTQThjbWRBY21GbmFHRjJaM1Z5ZFhK aGFtRnUKTG01aGJXVStpSk1FRXhZSUFEc0NHd01GQ3drSUJ3SUdGUW9KQ0FzQ0JCWUNBd0VD SGdFQ0Y0QVdJUVROTFY2cQpxWXpMTjlxUjFyQmZXQlprZjR2bFVRVUNYMjh2MEFJWkFRQUtD UkJmV0Jaa2Y0dmxVUWYyQVFENjNnc2RKemswCnc2R3kwQXpwSnRNYTYzbWJWUkFoNHhmbnhz Uk51NlNiR1FEL1VEeXRHanduUTRuS1lzR2RvQ2NBN0xNNjRFa2sKbkR2STNabWxxRzdYdXcr NE9BUmZaa0lrRWdvckJnRUVBWmRWQVFVQkFRZEFaZ2lxYzJOaEgvbXlyQ0Nhbjl4NwpnS0k2 UUJQWi8xYitCei9mM245NW96a0RBUWdIaUhnRUdCWUlBQ0FXSVFUTkxWNnFxWXpMTjlxUjFy QmZXQlprCmY0dmxVUVVDWDJaQ0pBSWJEQUFLQ1JCZldCWmtmNHZsVVYvT0FRRCt0TU5nbWRk UFNjaExwYURQcHNkRGhwdnIKYTJ1VG9uTlVtbmZiVHZQZ3BRRC9kRzcyTkNUOGhCVVZxdHp4 d1FtQnJYWS9uUEVVeGN0WXV2dTN1blVtelFVPQo9L2puMQotLS0tLUVORCBQR1AgUFVCTElD IEtFWSBCTE9DSy0tLS0tCg== Message-ID: <235c0bb4-7902-8bff-576c-eabb41cfd76d@raghavgururajan.name> Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 12:09:05 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <877dp7ik5v.fsf@netris.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="tTyaMufYu6vn96M3n1xrsPGFeTVXdsESe" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.70.178.230; envelope-from=rg@raghavgururajan.name; helo=relay10.mail.gandi.net X-Spam_score_int: -33 X-Spam_score: -3.4 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.829, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -4.42 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 1995E9402A2 X-Spam-Score: -4.42 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: gLkLMVi27LUC This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --tTyaMufYu6vn96M3n1xrsPGFeTVXdsESe Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="oEyCEQQrp60lhBdAyux7WN4YavzvNX1R0" --oEyCEQQrp60lhBdAyux7WN4YavzvNX1R0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-CA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mark! >=20 > I have one concern. >=20 > It seems to me that the main reason to specify an LTS kernel is to avoi= d > the unscheduled breakage that can occur when updating to a new kernel > release series (i.e. to a new major+minor version). Using > "linux-libre-lts" would fail to avoid these unscheduled updates; it > would merely reduce their frequency. >=20 > The only way to reliably avoid unscheduled major+minor kernel updates i= s > to specify "linux-libre-5.10" or similar. The cost of this approach is= > trivial: editing a few characters in the OS configuration when one > wishes to update to a newer LTS series. The benefit is that the user > gains control over when these updates will happen, and thus when any > associated breakage will occur. >=20 > To my mind, the benefit of this approach is so compelling, and its cost= > so trivial, that I can hardly understand why anyone who wishes to use a= n > LTS kernel would choose otherwise. >=20 > If we add "linux-libre-lts" to Guix, I worry that some users would use > it without understanding what they are sacrificing, and later get burne= d > by breakage when we modify its binding next year, or in some future > year. >=20 > A user who does not understand Guix in depth might reasonably expect > that when choosing "linux-libre-lts", upgrades to a later LTS series > would be postponed until the user gives explicit consent. In theory, > Guix could be modified to behave this way, although I doubt it would be= > worth the added complexity. In any case, since it *could* be done, a > user might reasonably expect it. >=20 > If the goal is to solve the problem of users forgetting to update to > newer LTS kernels, I suggest exploring other approaches. Perhaps we > could implement some system where Guix provides periodic reminders to > consider upgrading, when an older LTS kernel is specified in the OS > configuration and a newer LTS is available. There'd need to be a way t= o > silence the warnings though. >=20 > What do you think? I agree with the fact that the package variable in the form `linux-libre-X.Y` will provide fine grain control, over the form `linux-libre-lts`. But having the latter does not prevent the user from using the former, in the config.scm. Regardless, your concern is valid. The user might or might not know the difference between these forms. For this, I think we add an explanation in manual, somewhat like this: ``` linux-libre =3D> Always points to the latest released version. linux-libre-lts =3D> Always points to the currently released LTS version.= linux-libre-X.Y =3D> Only points to the specific major+minor released ver= sion. ``` Regarding the reminders, I think it makes things more complex. Yet we do remind users like "The guix distribution is X days old. Please consider updating via `guix pull`". The --news will show the newer linux-libre version. Regards, RG. --oEyCEQQrp60lhBdAyux7WN4YavzvNX1R0-- --tTyaMufYu6vn96M3n1xrsPGFeTVXdsESe Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iHUEARYIAB0WIQTNLV6qqYzLN9qR1rBfWBZkf4vlUQUCX+i/sgAKCRBfWBZkf4vl UaT/AP9bH6yDAk7tNP0KTtXI4zO5wVo+qZ7eZOUilVCyiFl8pwEAxiVoxdFL4d5K jsOkFOz6xQnbSApdacvV6DLcTbYkVwM= =sgxT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --tTyaMufYu6vn96M3n1xrsPGFeTVXdsESe--