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From: Stefan In-Reply-To: <20210620060045.GA10542@LionPure> Date: Sun, 20 Jun 2021 14:57:53 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <229469F5-4C46-4C0A-97F0-166B457AB35A@vodafonemail.de> References: <87y2bmznak.fsf@ponder> <20210619140050.0715df69@scratchpost.org> <6577B35F-1261-4EFF-81E4-E531A3FD6930@vodafonemail.de> <20210620060045.GA10542@LionPure> To: Bengt Richter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-purgate-type: clean X-purgate-Ad: Categorized by eleven eXpurgate (R) http://www.eleven.de X-purgate: This mail is considered clean (visit http://www.eleven.de for further information) X-purgate: clean X-purgate-size: 3530 X-purgate-ID: 155817::1624193875-0000067D-7D4AA3E6/0/0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=145.253.239.133; envelope-from=stefan-guix@vodafonemail.de; helo=smtpout2.vodafonemail.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Vagrant Cascadian , guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1624193924; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/pTg4ln3zvORR932DcfYvUzWn1iEWC/mHm37yXQ93jQ=; b=V2Il5Y8GNM3Drh89oQrXVxMA1GRx+cfYhoJuOSp1Ee7UeXpCDNXaT/u1Ns9m4TNPUFZoX1 OKuwTFE0DgZLEZS/IbDqyDbB7OausVxs0dd2j3xxD3ry0W4/weslgeQXQDREDW/Oi6/lr3 rGjfQXXr7YyfZ+jHI2ONgb9h0NejS++PRLRKmPpUpP8zFiaW4ax7KB6WRrTVkN6DdkKx5+ PLDc8m8zbBj7iD4fZUNn3fOf+0D5pM0kzajJXGN2qiIyYGJp7i1wUvH9/2FoLIFJrv7cAo rWTXjrkN1zIv/bnH8fLpfOnilAgyYLaO6VbujTL+9B0BH6rGHO0q6O39TdBTjA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1624193924; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=RoCGpU6fvJfEGW69WcOy7zm1ojtDE6uUUY9KPqMpb+WxSMUF4DTmUF/mtvHnpSEAYNvHe8 wK0ULDBbjFeMCttblGvD1azcr2q91KztgLKlCEVbIaboENUQp+Oo21jkPP5NscV4XevgU0 Z6fOGu5jZD6ppZXrZJ6QHAn2ZdVuGBThGgP0ADpbq/pESVwFcKsdo9i0ZlSok43SjdxaJ0 nI6kPJob55s0wA6Dcb5/NFivM3bSdPcdkItoa2BEb7PN/IHsEaKofB++6zUuKf/dUEQ0kU U/D+xLtYj4SYyedVjNfdJcYi7gFcVsUOQx46OfkxcviaZqPb6adkIZ6zDN5keQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=vodafonemail.de header.s=vfde-smtpout-mb-15sep header.b=ONkHSUg6; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.07 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=vodafonemail.de header.s=vfde-smtpout-mb-15sep header.b=ONkHSUg6; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5222BD91C X-Spam-Score: 0.07 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: NMZCDRWK9rgp Hi Bengt! > What form would a "firmware field" take? In principle a gexp, which installs a firmware package, or #f. On x86 = only #f is needed =E2=80=93 unless you want Guix to install e.g. = coreboot as your firmware. > On principle, I am against boundless _incorporation_ of new dangerous = capabilities into a piece of software, as opposed > to incoporating the ability to chain-load or otherwise encapsulate = execution of a single-purpose, > = minimal-source-for-better-inspection-and-exclusion-of-attacks-piece-of-sof= tware that does something dangerous. Well, GRUB has some nice features, which e.g. U-Boot hasn=E2=80=99t. It = would be comfortable to use these features on other architectures than = x86, too, e.g. graphics, modifying the kernel arguments, LUKS. Treating = U-Boot as firmware makes GRUB the de-facto bootloader and brings ARM and = other architectures on par with x86. > ISTM UEFI is way more complicated than booting needs to be. What does = the boot process need to do besides > (after post) identify a series of untrusted(!) block stream sources to = try, load the first image whose secure hash either matches > a white list -- or securely display the hash of the unrecognized image = and ask authorized operator for ok + hash nickname > for inclusion in the whitelist or reject? If ok, jump into boot image = as normal. >=20 > If a developer I trust says (in a securely communicated way) that I = can safely load something with a hash of whatever, > I think that is more trustworthy than pretty much anything else I can = think of. And on a forum, someone else can say, > "Don't trust that thing with hash xxx...zzz, it blew up for me," and I = can hold off until there's a consensus. >=20 > WDYT? Chain loading U-Boot, iPXE and GRUB offers iSCSI capabilities, using the = network driver from U-Boot, the TCP and iSCSI stack from iPXE, GRUB as = the front-end=C2=B9 and iSCSI as block device for the OS. This enables = possibilities you otherwise would not have. But of course this is not = against your argument, that it gets more complex. But it offers new = possibilities, which were not possible otherwise. Anyway, I do not suggest to degrade U-Boot to be a firmware only, it can = be a bootloader. But offering U-Boot as a firmware makes other = architectures similar to x86, offering the same possibilities. Actually I think any firmware to make GRUB usable is a good fit for a = firmware. Using coreboot as firmware and GRUB as its payload is a good = fit. If your system has a firmware capable to start GRUB, fine as well, = nothing to do. If Guix needs to install a firmware first, before GRUB = becomes usable, then I think there is a need for a firmware field. If = you want to treat U-Boot as a firmware-and-bootloader, then use it as = bootloader and omit the firmware field. > BTW, why not build multiple installer ISOs targeted for different = architectures, and specialized needs? > (for smaller ISOs and other benefits). I assume one could already do = this with guix, but why not leave the > whole ball-of-wax to git clone, and let people with common = architectures have less to download and less > irrelevant-to-them choices? I think I don't understand what you are talking about here. Bye Stefan =C2=B9 = page 22