From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms5.migadu.com with LMTPS id MEQ+OfJkTGMIXgAAbAwnHQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:09:23 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id mIVTOfJkTGORZgEA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:09:22 +0200 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B9E3916A7B for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:09:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33060 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ok9wn-0000q8-Rw for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:09:21 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37914) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ok9rY-0000pH-07 for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:04:00 -0400 Received: from mx1.dismail.de ([78.46.223.134]:16914) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ok9rV-0007FP-Sr for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 16:03:55 -0400 Received: from mx1.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mx1.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id eae231fe; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:03:50 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=dismail.de; h=date :message-id:from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s= 20190914; bh=iahNfzs+NxJfypqBgcTr0Dnw782rs8jmssFgU83BUtM=; b=GwS NHGJZnaDi1W2Hr4FuwgvB5tQT7rsCkmzyh8/DLS3AxvEHZrI7FVHmO/5ymn5HY1F Sa26xFM+K1+alwb4J/QlEpCVNLadutEezg46ExaDD3vK6q2IYzgtOwTHmlHzk/aW myy06+TSj6xHI7z9NFTHHs33gX9Yt0ESyZJ0ECv6+srwC2PUuKW6p3oCyIIkPOWp EdQ8HWN0xR30FfKZGsgFdUMRZ7Pqk8WJDK9cfK2GL5U/Kqll+mKL5sMqgxb/J38i pyQe8zdLz65gm6NXTZZGUlYTEMJya1h8A5wCPCf5GZvH915kJ73QOWsC2Y7G2IKR z7RGZZ6KbnAWWXAuFgA== Received: from smtp1.dismail.de ( [10.240.26.11]) by mx1.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id f888d81a; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:03:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: from smtp1.dismail.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTP id 1423e593; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:03:50 +0200 (CEST) Received: by dismail.de (OpenSMTPD) with ESMTPSA id e615d8ec (TLSv1.3:TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256:NO); Sun, 16 Oct 2022 22:03:49 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 15:03:47 -0500 Message-ID: <20221016150347.GB27359@dismail.de> From: jgart To: Liliana Marie Prikler Cc: Guix Devel Subject: Re: Guix Goals: One Hackable Developer Tool To Rule Them All In-Reply-To: <441e40f1ca4646bf6078797690167a9ee57a5ca0.camel@gmail.com> References: <20221013010703.GB27375@dismail.de> <866dce757bafc9e92c64582b3bc3b50a792c4e7e.camel@gmail.com> <20221016125442.GD2722@dismail.de> <441e40f1ca4646bf6078797690167a9ee57a5ca0.camel@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Received-SPF: pass client-ip=78.46.223.134; envelope-from=jgart@dismail.de; helo=mx1.dismail.de X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1665950962; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=gITkD3Wsmhu6CW+SU5eGfe22MrWul0Z0fAtwR/Zihrk=; b=PjSO5mLCNa15sygUaC/qqKAYb6E3F0ZGxnPoV59s/cw4L6SKtnC43jFPTu4Cl5sBq39mf+ 91TcjK0cWPMaY3WyOjk4m8DZmKe0G4IwuHf9N+2jj1vf75mL7jlpCnbsh7euyB92Lprimv 42kKhW11sShHbBl8CQEIS1MKQrgxShj++71npUFhDhPmgv9/d9q5TG8xbWOo6n4LIwdSQO 1IqvTNsZrpjBYRx5H80oVasSMzbBxNJ5CyPyS1GDO4k2eXy99V0AFMUpjwNcjLAsXJ9E0H E74/p6KMbzXwqG1J0IeUi1VDZorAeTW9DHgmL2c8aBa94/Vks7v+IWgUx93pSg== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1665950962; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=ISdKfeEVEK3Zzg2v9bYv/5sQdf7QyYOSmNgyyPZbShGIN3u2tNINXkqN5P7B8wrfLSaNdO xyswBtn5wXkdtldoDmM2Oao7gZ3DFfi64lPlmthJrvtMiwva6vpIPcA+0vxx+YTwTNC9wF Q0TloNpx9g7003WlT/TN6dv2futSdg7REAuZxfAtl0j3v1JIRQE0r0cZ/yJ1thb687JKKA 5/SCvWAYZa1Z7EnHEa65jgOhVPG5Yo5K6z4YJKFsqp+hNhoHkcUDkojsJHaiGcr1wOsXPW 4HM0xbDeepYs6gkkMJNTn7oCSt0lDwz7TgBwfMU75OCaLapMcFG9jlq3hpP9Ig== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=dismail.de header.s=20190914 header.b="GwS NHGJ"; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=dismail.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -9.41 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=dismail.de header.s=20190914 header.b="GwS NHGJ"; dmarc=pass (policy=reject) header.from=dismail.de; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: B9E3916A7B X-Spam-Score: -9.41 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: SSfu8bnsWHk0 On Sun, 16 Oct 2022 20:50:47 +0200 Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > makes your goal a somewhat stupid one if you don't actually specify > what it has to do on a per-project basis. hi lilyp, That's a bit harsh to say that my idea is "stupid" even in light of your qualifier. If you read the previous thread you can see some of my proposals on a per language basis. There's absolutely no requirement for me to work out the whole solution just yet on this email thread or to offer per project details. I'm not at the stage of proposing per-project ideas. I'm just casually brainstorming with those colleagues who want to. If that's too stressful to do then anyone is free to opt out of the conversation. There's no need to call it "stupid". Instead, ask me to expound on it in a friendly way instead if something is not clear or not yet stated. > I don't think it'd be that. Note that you have the full power of > Guix/Guile at your disposal, so you can encapsulate much of it in > channels. Is it a good idea to do so? Hell, no. If Guix channels don't give users enough freedom/hackability/extensibility to do what they want then maybe that's something that should be looked into. I would consider it a bug, and a limitation of the system. There should be enough trust in our community to allow users to hack channels the way they want and to contribute back to GNU Guix proper if they so choose. Restrictions shouldn't be built into the system to prevent users from doing x, y, z with regards to extending it. There should only be trust regarding extensibility. That's what made Guix stand out to me from the start. If that is not the case going forward then I will lose hope in Guix and would rather invest my time chasing that dream elsewhere. The extensibility thesis that Guix subscribes to (atleast to my understanding) involves trust in its users instead of giving them a limiting DSL and telling them what they are and are not allowed to do with it. I came to GNU Guix because of this freedom of extensibility and these ideals that I perceived in channels and in the system as a whole. Contributing back to upstream not a limiting feature that is "designed in" to Guix in order to enforce it. I don't want to be limited that way. This trust has to exist if it wants to cooperate with the Schemer spirit. > Refusing to use the tools your colleagues are using to instead hack on your own is not a > recipe for success. I'm currently using my colleagues tools extensively. Not sure what you mean here...