Freenode Administration

Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

I received this message on Freenode:

```
-jess- [Global Notice] Hi all. It feels like my moral responsibility
    to inform all users that administrative control of freenode and
    its user data will soon change hands, and I will be resigning from
    freenode staff effective immediately. It's been an honour to help
    you all.
```

Below are some resignation letters I have seen.

I think this event presents an opportunity for reassessment of
<https://guix.gnu.org/en/contact/irc/>.  Two interesting areas to
explore are Freenode alternatives and IRC alternatives / compliments.

# Freenode Alternatives

Here are some Freenode alternative questions I have:

Will Guix continue to use Freenode?

Will Guix create #guix channels on other IRC networks? (Several of the
resignation letters refer to <https://libera.chat/>)

Will Guix start it's own IRC server(s)?

# IRC alternatives / compliments

Some criteria that I have come up with are:
* Free software
* Can be used without a graphical user interface as many GPUs are not
  compatible with Linux-libre and can not run Xorg or Wayland window
  managers / desktops.
* Peer to peer as a way to avoid the issue of a centralized
  administrator changing their administration in undesirable ways. 

Some alternatives that come to mind that would need further
investigation include the following.  I do not know if any of these meet
all the criteria I mention above.

* Scuttlebutt
** https://scuttlebutt.nz/
** Is there a client that works without a graphical environment?

* DAT
** Are there messaging application for DAT?
** https://www.datprotocol.com/

* IPFS
** Are there messaging application for IPFS?
** https://ipfs.io/

* Jami
** https://jami.net/
** Swarms specifically
*** https://jami.net/swarm-introducing-a-new-generation-of-group-conversations/
*** Swarms are fully distributed and peer-to-peer text conversations,
    with a potentially unlimited number of participants.
** <Lutices[m]> on Freenode #jami said:
   "https://github.com/AmarOk1412/jami-cli/ no video/audio support but
   support swarm"

* RetroShare
** http://retroshare.cc/
** Is there a client that works without a graphical environment?

# Resignation Letter

These are some of the resignation letters I have seen.

https://www.kline.sh/
https://swantzter.se/freenode-resignation/
https://coevoet.fr/freenode.html
https://mniip.com/freenode.txt
https://blog.bofh.it/debian/id_461
https://gist.github.com/JonathanD82/6518b93708e0aaf4b8f92c8e7200816d
https://gist.github.com/jesopo/45a3e9cdbe517dc55e6058eb43b00ed9
https://gist.github.com/pinkisemils/39d4ded8b1639b6f39dcab15618649f5
https://gist.github.com/edk0/478fb4351bc3ba458288d6878032669d
https://fuchsnet.ch/privat/fn-resign-letter.txt

This is an open letter <https://gist.github.com/shadowcat-mst/998cea12794768bdb3da2daeff31baad>.

Re: Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

Bone Baboon writes:
> # IRC alternatives / compliments
>
> Some criteria that I have come up with are:
> * Free software
> * Can be used without a graphical user interface as many GPUs are not
>   compatible with Linux-libre and can not run Xorg or Wayland window
>   managers / desktops.
> * Peer to peer as a way to avoid the issue of a centralized
>   administrator changing their administration in undesirable ways. 

One more criteria.  Is an Emacs client available.  Inspired by
<https://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2021-05-19.log#183825>.

> Some alternatives that come to mind that would need further
> investigation include the following.  I do not know if any of these meet
> all the criteria I mention above.
>
> * Scuttlebutt
> ** https://scuttlebutt.nz/
> ** Is there a client that works without a graphical environment?
>
> * DAT
> ** Are there messaging application for DAT?
> ** https://www.datprotocol.com/
>
> * IPFS
> ** Are there messaging application for IPFS?
> ** https://ipfs.io/
>
> * Jami
> ** https://jami.net/
> ** Swarms specifically
> *** https://jami.net/swarm-introducing-a-new-generation-of-group-conversations/
> *** Swarms are fully distributed and peer-to-peer text conversations,
>     with a potentially unlimited number of participants.
> ** <Lutices[m]> on Freenode #jami said:
>    "https://github.com/AmarOk1412/jami-cli/ no video/audio support but
>    support swarm"
>
> * RetroShare
> ** http://retroshare.cc/
> ** Is there a client that works without a graphical environment?

Here is what I have discovered after some further preliminary
exploration.  I have added XMPP and Tox.

## Scuttlebutt

<https://scuttlebutt.nz/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - yes
* Non graphical client - yes
** scat <https://github.com/stripedpajamas/scat>
** scatzero <https://github.com/stripedpajamas/scatzero>
** scuttle-chat <https://github.com/clevinson/scuttle-chat>
* IRC capabilities - ?
* Emacs client - no

## DAT

<https://www.datprotocol.com/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - yes
* Non graphical client - yes
** cabal-cli <https://github.com/cabal-club/cabal-cli>
* IRC capabilities - yes
** <https://cabal.chat/>
* Emacs client - no

## IPFS

<https://ipfs.io/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - yes
* Non graphical client - prototype
** orbit-textui <https://github.com/orbitdb/orbit-textui>
*** prototype
* IRC capabilities - ?
* Emacs client - no

## Jami

<https://jami.net/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - yes
* Non graphical client - yes
** jami-cli <https://github.com/AmarOk1412/jami-cli>
* IRC capabilities - not yet
** Swarm requires more optimizations before pubic channels are added.
** Currently jami-cli has been tested for group of 5 (jami-cli's
   developer devices). 
** A group is invite only currently.
* Emacs client - no

## RetroShare

<https://retroshare.cc/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - yes
* Non graphical client - no
* IRC capabilities - yes
* Emacs client - no

## XMPP

<https://xmpp.org/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - no
** federated servers
* Non graphical client - yes
** Mcabber <https://mcabber.com/>
** Poezio <https://poez.io/en/>
** Profanity <https://profanity-im.github.io/>
** Aparte <https://github.com/paulfariello/aparte>
* IRC capabilities - yes
* Emacs client - yes
** jabber.el <https://github.com/legoscia/emacs-jabber>

## Tox

<https://tox.chat/>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - yes
* Non graphical client - yes
** Toxic <https://github.com/JFreegman/toxic>
* IRC capabilities - not currently
** Would get IRC capabilities if this gets added
   <https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/blob/ngc/docs/DHT-Group-Chats.md> 
* Emacs client - no

Re: Freenode Administration

[François]

Hello,

On Wed, May 19, 2021 at 01:54:45PM -0400, Bone Baboon wrote:
> Will Guix continue to use Freenode?
> 
> Will Guix create #guix channels on other IRC networks? (Several of the
> resignation letters refer to <https://libera.chat/>)

The channel #guix will probably continue to exist on Freenode but most
users are switching to libera.chat.

As we talk the logs on http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix are now those of
#guix on libera.chat

I have the feeling that the Guix website will be updated soon to reflect
this move.

> Will Guix start it's own IRC server(s)?

It is not an option discussed and I think it would be a misplacement of
Guix scarce resources.

> # IRC alternatives / compliments

On alternatives you missed Matrix[1] which is federated (like email)
and have several clients includig weechat for text-based interface.

Several people (and I am one of them) already uses Matrix clients to
access IRC networks with bridges (which libera.chat does not already
have but work is in progress).

There is even some ongoing work ([2], [3]) on making Matrix more
peer-to-peer but it is still completely experimental.


[1]: https://matrix.org
[2]: https://matrix.org/blog/2021/05/06/introducing-the-pinecone-overlay-network
[3]: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix

Re: Freenode Administration

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

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Hi Bone,

Bone Baboon 写道：
> Will Guix continue to use Freenode?

No.  #guix is now on Libera Chat[0], the new name of what was 
‘Freenode’ before yesterday's hostile takeover of the freenode.net 
infra.

I updated the docs and the Web site yesterday.  It probably took a 
while to refresh.

Many thanks to Taylan for grabbing Libera's #guix before squatters 
could and for giving us administrative access.  I've applied for 
more official ‘project’ status like we had at old Freenode.

The old #guix channel still exists.  Users will see the new 
network name advertised in the /topic and ENTRYMSG if supported by 
their client, but I don't plan on ‘closing’ it unless it becomes a 
problem somehow.

> Will Guix create #guix channels on other IRC networks? (Several 
> of the
> resignation letters refer to <https://libera.chat/>)

Over the years multiple authors of those letters have been 
extremely helpful, responsive, and downright friendly to me 
whenever I bothered them with my noob questions.  It never felt 
like I was talking to overworked volunteers.  I didn't hesitate 
for a moment to trust their judgment.

> Will Guix start it's own IRC server(s)?

François is right: starting and running an IRC server is a serious 
commitment, not something you do on Sundays.  Leave it to 
competent people who are passionate about doing their thing well.

Don't get me wrong: I <3 self-hosting.  Perhaps we can host one of 
the mentioned IRC alternatives, but I urge anyone volunteering: 
bridge it with IRC so's not to split the community further.

Kind regards,

T G-R

[0]: https://libera.chat/

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Re: Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

François writes:
>> # IRC alternatives / compliments
>
> On alternatives you missed Matrix[1] which is federated (like email)
> and have several clients includig weechat for text-based interface.
>
> Several people (and I am one of them) already uses Matrix clients to
> access IRC networks with bridges (which libera.chat does not already
> have but work is in progress).
>
> There is even some ongoing work ([2], [3]) on making Matrix more
> peer-to-peer but it is still completely experimental.
>
>
> [1]: https://matrix.org
> [2]: https://matrix.org/blog/2021/05/06/introducing-the-pinecone-overlay-network
> [3]: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix

## Matrix

<https://matrix.org>

* Free libre - yes
* Peer to peer - no yet, currently federated servers
** <https://matrix.org/blog/2021/05/06/introducing-the-pinecone-overlay-network>
** <https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix>
* Non graphical client - yes
** <https://github.com/8go/matrix-commander>
** <https://github.com/saadrushd/matrixcli>
** <https://github.com/tulir/gomuks>
** <https://github.com/poljar/weechat-matrix>
* IRC capabilities - yes
* Emacs client - yes
** <https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el>

Re: Freenode Administration

[raingloom]

On Thu, 20 May 2021 01:40:08 -0400
Bone Baboon <bone.baboon@disroot.org> wrote:

> Bone Baboon writes:
> > # IRC alternatives / compliments
> >
> > Some criteria that I have come up with are:
> > * Free software
> > * Can be used without a graphical user interface as many GPUs are
> > not compatible with Linux-libre and can not run Xorg or Wayland
> > window managers / desktops.
> > * Peer to peer as a way to avoid the issue of a centralized
> >   administrator changing their administration in undesirable ways.
> >  
> 
> One more criteria.  Is an Emacs client available.  Inspired by
> <https://logs.guix.gnu.org/guix/2021-05-19.log#183825>.
> 
> > Some alternatives that come to mind that would need further
> > investigation include the following.  I do not know if any of these
> > meet all the criteria I mention above.
> >
> > * Scuttlebutt
> > ** https://scuttlebutt.nz/
> > ** Is there a client that works without a graphical environment?
> >
> > * DAT
> > ** Are there messaging application for DAT?
> > ** https://www.datprotocol.com/
> >
> > * IPFS
> > ** Are there messaging application for IPFS?
> > ** https://ipfs.io/
> >
> > * Jami
> > ** https://jami.net/
> > ** Swarms specifically
> > ***
> > https://jami.net/swarm-introducing-a-new-generation-of-group-conversations/
> > *** Swarms are fully distributed and peer-to-peer text
> > conversations, with a potentially unlimited number of participants.
> > ** <Lutices[m]> on Freenode #jami said:
> > "https://github.com/AmarOk1412/jami-cli/ no video/audio support but
> > support swarm"
> >
> > * RetroShare
> > ** http://retroshare.cc/
> > ** Is there a client that works without a graphical environment?  
> 
> Here is what I have discovered after some further preliminary
> exploration.  I have added XMPP and Tox.
> 
> ## Scuttlebutt
> 
> <https://scuttlebutt.nz/>
> 
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** scat <https://github.com/stripedpajamas/scat>
> ** scatzero <https://github.com/stripedpajamas/scatzero>
> ** scuttle-chat <https://github.com/clevinson/scuttle-chat>
> * IRC capabilities - ?
> * Emacs client - no
> 
> ## DAT
> 
> <https://www.datprotocol.com/>
> 
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** cabal-cli <https://github.com/cabal-club/cabal-cli>
> * IRC capabilities - yes
> ** <https://cabal.chat/>
> * Emacs client - no

I don't think we can package NPM stuff.

Both the Dat and SSB cores have non-JavaScript implementations AFAIK,
but Cabal itself is JavaScript-only and so are all the SSB clients that
I've seen, but admittedly I haven't looked at the state of the SSB
ecosystem in a few months, so maybe that has changed.
The various sbot implementations do not count as proper clients.

Re: Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

Bone Baboon writes:
> Here is what I have discovered after some further preliminary
> exploration.  I have added XMPP and Tox.

This is supplemental information in regards to raingloom's comment on
implementation languages.

> ## Scuttlebutt
>
> <https://scuttlebutt.nz/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** scat <https://github.com/stripedpajamas/scat>

scat is implemented in JavaScript.

> ** scatzero <https://github.com/stripedpajamas/scatzero>

scatzero is implemented in JavaScript.

> ** scuttle-chat <https://github.com/clevinson/scuttle-chat>

scuttle-chat is implemented in Rust.  The Readme says "Work in
Progress!!".

> * IRC capabilities - ?
> * Emacs client - no
>
> ## DAT
>
> <https://www.datprotocol.com/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** cabal-cli <https://github.com/cabal-club/cabal-cli>

cabal-cli is implemented in JavaScript.

> * IRC capabilities - yes
> ** <https://cabal.chat/>
> * Emacs client - no
>
> ## IPFS
>
> <https://ipfs.io/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - prototype
> ** orbit-textui <https://github.com/orbitdb/orbit-textui>

orbit-textui is implemented in JavaScript.

> *** prototype
> * IRC capabilities - ?
> * Emacs client - no
>
> ## Jami
>
> <https://jami.net/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** jami-cli <https://github.com/AmarOk1412/jami-cli>

jami-cli is implemented in Rust.

> * IRC capabilities - not yet
> ** Swarm requires more optimizations before pubic channels are added.
> ** Currently jami-cli has been tested for group of 5 (jami-cli's
>    developer devices). 
> ** A group is invite only currently.
> * Emacs client - no
>
> ## RetroShare
>
> <https://retroshare.cc/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - no

RetroShare is implemented in C++.

> * IRC capabilities - yes
> * Emacs client - no
>
> ## XMPP
>
> <https://xmpp.org/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - no
> ** federated servers
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** Mcabber <https://mcabber.com/>

Mcabber is implemented in C.

> ** Poezio <https://poez.io/en/>

Poezio is implemented in Python 3.

> ** Profanity <https://profanity-im.github.io/>

Profanity is implemented in C.

> ** Aparte <https://github.com/paulfariello/aparte>

Aparte is implemented in Rust.

> * IRC capabilities - yes
> * Emacs client - yes
> ** jabber.el <https://github.com/legoscia/emacs-jabber>

jabber.el is implemented in Emacs Lisp.

>
> ## Tox
>
> <https://tox.chat/>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - yes
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** Toxic <https://github.com/JFreegman/toxic>

Toxic is implemented in C.

> * IRC capabilities - not currently
> ** Would get IRC capabilities if this gets added
>    <https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/blob/ngc/docs/DHT-Group-Chats.md> 
> * Emacs client - no

Re: Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

Bone Baboon writes:
> ## Matrix

This is supplemental information in regards to raingloom's comment on
implementation languages.

>
> <https://matrix.org>
>
> * Free libre - yes
> * Peer to peer - no yet, currently federated servers
> ** <https://matrix.org/blog/2021/05/06/introducing-the-pinecone-overlay-network>
> ** <https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix>
> * Non graphical client - yes
> ** <https://github.com/8go/matrix-commander>

matrix-commander is implemented in Python 3.

> ** <https://github.com/saadrushd/matrixcli>

matrixcli is implemented in Python 3.

> ** <https://github.com/tulir/gomuks>

gomuks is implemented in Go.  The Readme says "Basic usage is possible,
but expect bugs and missing features".

> ** <https://github.com/poljar/weechat-matrix>

weechat-matrix is support Python 2 and 3.  The Readme says
"weechat-matrix is in maintenance mode". 

<https://github.com/poljar/weechat-matrix-rs> is implemented in Rust.
The Readme says "This project is a work in progress".


> * IRC capabilities - yes
> * Emacs client - yes
> ** <https://github.com/alphapapa/matrix-client.el>

matrix-client.el is implemented in Emacs Lisp.

Re: Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

raingloom writes:
> I don't think we can package NPM stuff.
>
> Both the Dat and SSB cores have non-JavaScript implementations AFAIK,
> but Cabal itself is JavaScript-only and so are all the SSB clients that
> I've seen, but admittedly I haven't looked at the state of the SSB
> ecosystem in a few months, so maybe that has changed.
> The various sbot implementations do not count as proper clients.

I have added information on the implementation languages for clients to
this tread.

Here is information on servers for XMPP and Matrix.

# XMPP Servers

* https://github.com/ortuman/jackal
** Implemented in Go

* https://github.com/maranda/metronome
** Implemented in Lua

* https://github.com/bjc/prosody
** Implemented in Lua

* https://github.com/igniterealtime/Openfire
** Implemented in Java

# Matrix Servers

* https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse
** Implemented in Python 3

* https://github.com/matrix-org/dendrite
** Implemented in Go

** https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit
** Implemented in Rust

* https://github.com/matrix-construct/construct
** Implemented in C++

* https://gitlab.com/plasmahs/plasma
** Implemented in Elixir

* https://gitlab.com/mascarene/mascarene
** Implemented in Scala

* https://gitlab.com/ma1uta/jeon
** Implemented in Java

Re: Freenode Administration

[Bone Baboon]

Bone Baboon writes:
> # IRC alternatives / compliments
>
> Some criteria that I have come up with are:
> * Free software
> * Can be used without a graphical user interface as many GPUs are not
>   compatible with Linux-libre and can not run Xorg or Wayland window
>   managers / desktops.
> * Peer to peer as a way to avoid the issue of a centralized
>   administrator changing their administration in undesirable ways. 

Here is one more criteria.  This would be important if being inclusive
of a diverse group of people is desirable.

* Works with slow and low bandwidth internet connections.

Some examples are dial up modems, mesh networks and satellite.