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* How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
@ 2020-12-31 18:09 Josh Marshall
  2020-12-31 18:54 ` Christopher Baines
  2020-12-31 18:56 ` Leo Famulari
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Josh Marshall @ 2020-12-31 18:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guix-devel

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Happy end of the forever year, everyone

One thing I know that I have run into, and have heard so many times over
from those on Windows is how unstable or much of a hassle it can be to get
games to work.  In the last few weeks, I spent ~20 hours just to this
hassle myself.  Having everything included as a guix package would go a
very long way to resolving these instabilities, kicking most of the
problems down to just the kernel and kernel modules which is far more
constrained.  This should make it easier to make not Windows more
palatable, but AGPL+DRM isn't exactly the most cozy of relationships.
Given this, would having these games as packages be permissible?  Perfect
being the enemy of the good and all that.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 18:09 How would packaging Steam-proton games be received? Josh Marshall
@ 2020-12-31 18:54 ` Christopher Baines
  2020-12-31 18:56 ` Leo Famulari
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Christopher Baines @ 2020-12-31 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Marshall; +Cc: guix-devel

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Josh Marshall <joshua.r.marshall.1991@gmail.com> writes:

> Happy end of the forever year, everyone
>
> One thing I know that I have run into, and have heard so many times over
> from those on Windows is how unstable or much of a hassle it can be to get
> games to work.  In the last few weeks, I spent ~20 hours just to this
> hassle myself.  Having everything included as a guix package would go a
> very long way to resolving these instabilities, kicking most of the
> problems down to just the kernel and kernel modules which is far more
> constrained.  This should make it easier to make not Windows more
> palatable, but AGPL+DRM isn't exactly the most cozy of relationships.
> Given this, would having these games as packages be permissible?  Perfect
> being the enemy of the good and all that.

Hi Josh,

I'm not quite sure what games/software you're referring to, can you
clarify?

In terms of Steam and Proton which you mention, as far as I'm aware,
Steam is non-free software, so not suitable for Guix to distribute
[1]. As for Proton, it might be free software, I'm unsure, so maybe that
would be useful to package?

1: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/en/html_node/Software-Freedom.html

Thanks,

Chris

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 18:09 How would packaging Steam-proton games be received? Josh Marshall
  2020-12-31 18:54 ` Christopher Baines
@ 2020-12-31 18:56 ` Leo Famulari
  2020-12-31 19:12   ` Josh Marshall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Leo Famulari @ 2020-12-31 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Marshall; +Cc: guix-devel

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On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:09:06PM -0500, Josh Marshall wrote:
> One thing I know that I have run into, and have heard so many times over
> from those on Windows is how unstable or much of a hassle it can be to get
> games to work.  In the last few weeks, I spent ~20 hours just to this
> hassle myself.  Having everything included as a guix package would go a
> very long way to resolving these instabilities, kicking most of the
> problems down to just the kernel and kernel modules which is far more
> constrained.  This should make it easier to make not Windows more
> palatable, but AGPL+DRM isn't exactly the most cozy of relationships.
> Given this, would having these games as packages be permissible?  Perfect
> being the enemy of the good and all that.

In general, we follow the Free System Distribution Guidelines (FSDG) in
deciding what is acceptable to include in GNU Guix:

https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.en.html

All software must be freely licensed, and support for DRM is not
permitted.

However, if you have code that is working for you, or you think that
Guix can improve the situation overall, Guix channels are a
well-supported way to use Guix while remaining separate from it.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 18:56 ` Leo Famulari
@ 2020-12-31 19:12   ` Josh Marshall
  2020-12-31 19:53     ` Leo Famulari
  2020-12-31 19:55     ` Leo Famulari
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Josh Marshall @ 2020-12-31 19:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leo Famulari; +Cc: guix-devel

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So a separate channel would work for non-free software?  I know the stuff
is fundamentally gross.  I'd still like to have a better way to get out of
an ecosystem that is basically entirely all non-free software and a
transition to fully free becomes possible.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 1:56 PM Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 01:09:06PM -0500, Josh Marshall wrote:
> > One thing I know that I have run into, and have heard so many times over
> > from those on Windows is how unstable or much of a hassle it can be to
> get
> > games to work.  In the last few weeks, I spent ~20 hours just to this
> > hassle myself.  Having everything included as a guix package would go a
> > very long way to resolving these instabilities, kicking most of the
> > problems down to just the kernel and kernel modules which is far more
> > constrained.  This should make it easier to make not Windows more
> > palatable, but AGPL+DRM isn't exactly the most cozy of relationships.
> > Given this, would having these games as packages be permissible?  Perfect
> > being the enemy of the good and all that.
>
> In general, we follow the Free System Distribution Guidelines (FSDG) in
> deciding what is acceptable to include in GNU Guix:
>
> https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.en.html
>
> All software must be freely licensed, and support for DRM is not
> permitted.
>
> However, if you have code that is working for you, or you think that
> Guix can improve the situation overall, Guix channels are a
> well-supported way to use Guix while remaining separate from it.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 19:12   ` Josh Marshall
@ 2020-12-31 19:53     ` Leo Famulari
  2020-12-31 21:07       ` Leo Famulari
  2021-01-09  9:47       ` Bengt Richter
  2020-12-31 19:55     ` Leo Famulari
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Leo Famulari @ 2020-12-31 19:53 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Marshall; +Cc: guix-devel

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Hi Josh,

I'm replying off-list, because this subject has been discussed soooo
many times without reaching a different conclusion, and because I worry
about starting a flamewar on the mailing list.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 02:12:16PM -0500, Josh Marshall wrote:
> So a separate channel would work for non-free software?  I know the stuff
> is fundamentally gross.  I'd still like to have a better way to get out of
> an ecosystem that is basically entirely all non-free software and a
> transition to fully free becomes possible.

If we think about free software in terms of the "4 freedoms" [0],
channels are a fully-supported way to help people take advantage of the
"zero-eth freedom", which is the freedom to use the software (Guix) as
one sees fit.

Personally, I think that ensuring an operating system is 100% free
software (and with no DRM support) hampers the success of the free
software movement by driving away users.

If we lived in a world with free software support for common hardware
(ahem, WiFi, Bluetooth, LTE) and for popular software use cases (popular
games and apps, commercial and educational software), then offering a
totally free system would be a viable approach.

But, that world doesn't exist. Even though some people who are happy to
use 10+ year old computers for very limited use cases might think it
does... many of them don't even use mobile phones... they don't
understand contemporary computing at all, from a practical perspective.

Nevertheless, the GNU Guix project has made a commitment to working
within the FSDG, and we are basically stuck with it barring some
cataclysmic change.

I think that maintaining a harmonious atmosphere within Guix will help
it continue to grow, and channels can satisfy the need for things that
don't fit the FSDG. If Guix becomes large enough, it could be
transformative for the free software movement.

[0]
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 19:12   ` Josh Marshall
  2020-12-31 19:53     ` Leo Famulari
@ 2020-12-31 19:55     ` Leo Famulari
  2020-12-31 20:36       ` Josh Marshall
  2020-12-31 20:50       ` Ryan Prior
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Leo Famulari @ 2020-12-31 19:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Marshall; +Cc: guix-devel

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 02:12:16PM -0500, Josh Marshall wrote:
> So a separate channel would work for non-free software?  I know the stuff
> is fundamentally gross.  I'd still like to have a better way to get out of
> an ecosystem that is basically entirely all non-free software and a
> transition to fully free becomes possible.

Yes, channels can work for any kind of software, and they let us keep
Guix as "100% free software". There will be occasional hiccups as the
module imports from GNU Guix into the channel are changed, but it
shouldn't be too often.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 19:55     ` Leo Famulari
@ 2020-12-31 20:36       ` Josh Marshall
  2020-12-31 20:50       ` Ryan Prior
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Josh Marshall @ 2020-12-31 20:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  Cc: guix-devel

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OK, thanks everyone.  I've got my next steps.  Sorry if this subject has
been repetitive.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 2:55 PM Leo Famulari <leo@famulari.name> wrote:

> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 02:12:16PM -0500, Josh Marshall wrote:
> > So a separate channel would work for non-free software?  I know the stuff
> > is fundamentally gross.  I'd still like to have a better way to get out
> of
> > an ecosystem that is basically entirely all non-free software and a
> > transition to fully free becomes possible.
>
> Yes, channels can work for any kind of software, and they let us keep
> Guix as "100% free software". There will be occasional hiccups as the
> module imports from GNU Guix into the channel are changed, but it
> shouldn't be too often.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 19:55     ` Leo Famulari
  2020-12-31 20:36       ` Josh Marshall
@ 2020-12-31 20:50       ` Ryan Prior
  2020-12-31 20:55         ` Josh Marshall
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread
From: Ryan Prior @ 2020-12-31 20:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Marshall, Leo Famulari
  Cc: Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution

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I don't know in depth how Proton works internally, but I think it
includes non free DLLs, including DRM support, to improve compatibility
with Windows games. If my understanding is correct, shipping Proton and
games that depend on it as part of Guix would be a tacit endorsement of
proprietary software that exercises unjust control over users. The GNU
project, as a matter of policy, does not recommend non free software
components, or free components like DRM that are exclusively useful for
restraining user freedoms, so that may be a dead end.

I like your energy in this thread though and agree that it would be
great if we could help gamers break out of the ugly Steam ecosystem.
Itch is an independent game distributor and they also publish all their
client code as free software: https://github.com/itchio

Bringing Itch to Guix might be an interesting project, if we could find
a way to modify the client so that it does not recommend any games that
are not free software. There's a healthy and growing list of such games
here: https://itch.io/games/tag-open-source

We might have to build our own game discovery portal to replace the
upstream itch.io storefront, but that would be a really nice thing to
have in general.

Itch has its own tools for game developers to build their game and ship
updates to their users. For example, they designed their own protocol
for shipping new game builds using minimal resources:
https://github.com/itchio/wharf

It would be beneficial if Guix could learn some of Itch's tricks, to
support fast moving projects that want to ship frequent updates to
users.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 20:50       ` Ryan Prior
@ 2020-12-31 20:55         ` Josh Marshall
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Josh Marshall @ 2020-12-31 20:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ryan Prior; +Cc: Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution

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An expanded user-base brings with it an expanded developer-base.

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 3:50 PM Ryan Prior <ryanprior@hey.com> wrote:

> I don't know in depth how Proton works internally, but I think it includes
> non free DLLs, including DRM support, to improve compatibility with Windows
> games. If my understanding is correct, shipping Proton and games that
> depend on it as part of Guix would be a tacit endorsement of proprietary
> software that exercises unjust control over users. The GNU project, as a
> matter of policy, does not recommend non free software components, or free
> components like DRM that are exclusively useful for restraining user
> freedoms, so that may be a dead end.
>
> I like your energy in this thread though and agree that it would be great
> if we could help gamers break out of the ugly Steam ecosystem. Itch is an
> independent game distributor and they also publish all their client code as
> free software: https://github.com/itchio
>
> Bringing Itch to Guix might be an interesting project, if we could find a
> way to modify the client so that it does not recommend any games that are
> not free software. There's a healthy and growing list of such games here:
> https://itch.io/games/tag-open-source
>
> We might have to build our own game discovery portal to replace the
> upstream itch.io storefront, but that would be a really nice thing to
> have in general.
>
> Itch has its own tools for game developers to build their game and ship
> updates to their users. For example, they designed their own protocol for
> shipping new game builds using minimal resources:
> https://github.com/itchio/wharf
>
> It would be beneficial if Guix could learn some of Itch's tricks, to
> support fast moving projects that want to ship frequent updates to users.
>

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 19:53     ` Leo Famulari
@ 2020-12-31 21:07       ` Leo Famulari
  2021-01-09  9:47       ` Bengt Richter
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Leo Famulari @ 2020-12-31 21:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Josh Marshall; +Cc: guix-devel

On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 02:53:24PM -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
> Hi Josh,
> 
> I'm replying off-list, because this subject has been discussed soooo
> many times without reaching a different conclusion, and because I worry
> about starting a flamewar on the mailing list.

Oops, I forgot to remove the cc. Oh well.


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

* Re: How would packaging Steam-proton games be received?
  2020-12-31 19:53     ` Leo Famulari
  2020-12-31 21:07       ` Leo Famulari
@ 2021-01-09  9:47       ` Bengt Richter
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Bengt Richter @ 2021-01-09  9:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Leo Famulari; +Cc: guix-devel

O Ye of little Faith, please read:
    https://puri.sm/posts/the-future-of-software-supply-chain-security/
(It really is worth a read ;)

On +2020-12-31 14:53:24 -0500, Leo Famulari wrote:
> Hi Josh,
> 
> I'm replying off-list, because this subject has been discussed soooo
> many times without reaching a different conclusion, and because I worry
> about starting a flamewar on the mailing list.
> 
> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 02:12:16PM -0500, Josh Marshall wrote:
> > So a separate channel would work for non-free software?  I know the stuff
> > is fundamentally gross.  I'd still like to have a better way to get out of
> > an ecosystem that is basically entirely all non-free software and a
> > transition to fully free becomes possible.
> 
> If we think about free software in terms of the "4 freedoms" [0],
> channels are a fully-supported way to help people take advantage of the
> "zero-eth freedom", which is the freedom to use the software (Guix) as
> one sees fit.
> 
> Personally, I think that ensuring an operating system is 100% free
> software (and with no DRM support) hampers the success of the free
> software movement by driving away users.
> 
> If we lived in a world with free software support for common hardware
> (ahem, WiFi, Bluetooth, LTE) and for popular software use cases (popular
> games and apps, commercial and educational software), then offering a
> totally free system would be a viable approach.
> 
> But, that world doesn't exist. Even though some people who are happy to
> use 10+ year old computers for very limited use cases might think it
> does... many of them don't even use mobile phones... they don't
> understand contemporary computing at all, from a practical perspective.
> 
> Nevertheless, the GNU Guix project has made a commitment to working
> within the FSDG, and we are basically stuck with it barring some
> cataclysmic change.
> 
> I think that maintaining a harmonious atmosphere within Guix will help
> it continue to grow, and channels can satisfy the need for things that
> don't fit the FSDG. If Guix becomes large enough, it could be
> transformative for the free software movement.
> 
> [0]
> https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html

-- 
Regards,
Bengt Richter


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-01-09  9:47 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-12-31 18:09 How would packaging Steam-proton games be received? Josh Marshall
2020-12-31 18:54 ` Christopher Baines
2020-12-31 18:56 ` Leo Famulari
2020-12-31 19:12   ` Josh Marshall
2020-12-31 19:53     ` Leo Famulari
2020-12-31 21:07       ` Leo Famulari
2021-01-09  9:47       ` Bengt Richter
2020-12-31 19:55     ` Leo Famulari
2020-12-31 20:36       ` Josh Marshall
2020-12-31 20:50       ` Ryan Prior
2020-12-31 20:55         ` Josh Marshall

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