An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Svante Signell]

Hi,

Seeing this on April 1st I really hope it is a joke. If not I'm not
ever going to support GNU software or anything GNU related any more.
You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Do you regularly upgrade the elogind packages by Gentoo,  https://wiki.
gentoo.org/wiki/Elogind originally created by Andy Wingo for Guix? They
are now at Prep v236.1: see https://github.com/elogind/elogind

Additionally, are you using eudev replacing udev from systemd,
https://github.com/gentoo/eudev? It is also a fork of systemd code
maintained by Gentoo.

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Nils Gillmann]

Svante Signell transcribed 542 bytes:
> Hi,
> 
> Seeing this on April 1st I really hope it is a joke. If not I'm not

We hoped it would be very obvious, but yes, it's an April fools. Even when
Marius(?) went through great length of building (no pun intended) it up.
It even builds.
We'll continue to use Shepherd.

> ever going to support GNU software or anything GNU related any more.
> You should be ashamed of yourselves.

> Do you regularly upgrade the elogind packages by Gentoo,  https://wiki.
> gentoo.org/wiki/Elogind originally created by Andy Wingo for Guix? They
> are now at Prep v236.1: see https://github.com/elogind/elogind
> 
> Additionally, are you using eudev replacing udev from systemd,
> https://github.com/gentoo/eudev? It is also a fork of systemd code
> maintained by Gentoo.
> 

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Nils Gillmann]

Nils Gillmann transcribed 805 bytes:
> Svante Signell transcribed 542 bytes:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Seeing this on April 1st I really hope it is a joke. If not I'm not
> 
> We hoped it would be very obvious, but yes, it's an April fools. Even when
> Marius(?) went through great length of building (no pun intended) it up.
> It even builds.
> We'll continue to use Shepherd.

Unless I've been fooled by a real post that just happened to be issued
on April 1st. I wasn't at the FOSDEM meeting, so the others could make
up anything they want that was discussed there.

> > ever going to support GNU software or anything GNU related any more.
> > You should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> > Do you regularly upgrade the elogind packages by Gentoo,  https://wiki.
> > gentoo.org/wiki/Elogind originally created by Andy Wingo for Guix? They
> > are now at Prep v236.1: see https://github.com/elogind/elogind
> > 
> > Additionally, are you using eudev replacing udev from systemd,
> > https://github.com/gentoo/eudev? It is also a fork of systemd code
> > maintained by Gentoo.
> > 
> 

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Leo Famulari]

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On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 11:42:16AM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> Hi,

Hi and welcome to the Guix community...

> Seeing this on April 1st I really hope it is a joke. If not I'm not
> ever going to support GNU software or anything GNU related any more.
> You should be ashamed of yourselves.

Yes, it was a joke :)

Please note that within the Guix mailing lists and IRC chat we do our
best to maintain a friendly and cooperative atmosphere.

> Do you regularly upgrade the elogind packages by Gentoo,  https://wiki.
> gentoo.org/wiki/Elogind originally created by Andy Wingo for Guix? They
> are now at Prep v236.1: see https://github.com/elogind/elogind
> 
> Additionally, are you using eudev replacing udev from systemd,
> https://github.com/gentoo/eudev? It is also a fork of systemd code
> maintained by Gentoo.

Yes, we are using these programs. We update them according to our own
schedule rather than Gentoo's, so they are typically a few minor
releases behind.

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Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Svante Signell]

On Mon, 2018-04-02 at 10:38 -0400, Leo Famulari wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 02, 2018 at 11:42:16AM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> > Hi,
> 
> Hi and welcome to the Guix community...

Thanks!

> > Seeing this on April 1st I really hope it is a joke. If not I'm not
> > ever going to support GNU software or anything GNU related any more.
> > You should be ashamed of yourselves.
> 
> Yes, it was a joke :)
> 
> Please note that within the Guix mailing lists and IRC chat we do our
> best to maintain a friendly and cooperative atmosphere.

I was hoping it would be an April 1st joke. And maybe I over-reacted. But fact
is that RMS has already abandoned the Free Software community e.g. by continuing
to support gnome as a GNU project.

So seeing this subject on the guix-devel mailing list, being a GNU project,
makes me very sad.

And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one of the 4
freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
      * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
        does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
        source code is a precondition for this.

It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing such
definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of freedoms of
the users of software. Especially in view of that most Free Software nowadays is
developed by commercial players, having their own agenda, actively alienating
their users (and non-paid, spare time developers).

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Martin Castillo]

Hi,

> And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
> Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one of the 4
> freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
>       * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
>         does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
>         source code is a precondition for this.


Freedom 1 gives you the right to change the software for yourself, but
not the right to force others to change their version.

> It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing such
> definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of freedoms of
> the users of software. Especially in view of that most Free Software nowadays is
> developed by commercial players, having their own agenda, actively alienating
> their users (and non-paid, spare time developers).
> 

Do you mean software, where the users can dictate the author what should
be changed/made in its software?

Martin

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Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Adonay Felipe Nogueira]

> is that RMS has already abandoned the Free Software community e.g. by continuing
> to support gnome as a GNU project.

I'm not being picky or anything, actually I'm interested on knowing
stuff, because I don't know everything, so: What is the real problem
with GNOME, both as a software/product and as a group/project? All these
questions are related to free/libre software philosophy.

> And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
> Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one of the 4
> freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
>       * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
>         does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
>         source code is a precondition for this.

Care to prove that systemd doesn't give the end-user the freedom 1?

For the case of systemd, in trisquel-users mailing list (or the English
Trisquel forum if you do like forums instead), we've seen this systemd
protests frequently, and more often related to misunderstandings on
*how* systemd reacts to problems and *what* systemd aims to be as
software/product.

Besides, the UNIX philosophy isn't a requirement for free/libre
software.

> It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing such
> definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of freedoms of
> the users of software. Especially in view of that most Free Software nowadays is
> developed by commercial players, having their own agenda, actively alienating
> their users (and non-paid, spare time developers).

I agree that we might perhaps try to shift the powers, but I deny that
the definitions must be updated, particularly because it already
implements this possibility. The difficulty is actually how to ballance
the end-user/for-profit-organization relationship and importance.

As an example there is the existance of Tryton and NextCloud, GNU Guile
Scheme, GNU Emacs, Org-mode, and LaTeX which, as far as I know, are
community driven and --- in the case of Tryton and NextCloud --- try to
advertise community members to provide services to the end-user, and
accept contributions of these members, but forbid making a
dubious-or-non-free "premium" edition.

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Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Svante Signell]

Sorry, I'm not subscribed to this list. Hopefully this reply comes in correct
thread order. 

> Hi,
> 
> > And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
> > Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one of 
> > the 4
> > freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
> >       * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
> >         does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
> >         source code is a precondition for this.
> 
> 
> Freedom 1 gives you the right to change the software for yourself, but
> not the right to force others to change their version.

What made you think of that? I've not said anything about "forcing others to
change their version"

> > It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing such
> > definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of freedoms
> of the users of software. Especially in view of that most Free Software
> nowadays is developed by commercial players, having their own agenda, actively
> alienating their users (and non-paid, spare time developers).
> > 
> 
> Do you mean software, where the users can dictate the author what should
> be changed/made in its software?

Again, I don't understand you. Never heard about software where the users have
any say in what's being developed except when they pay for it. And as you know
money rules. But one fact is that corporations hiring people to develop software
are doing that for a purpose (and they all have their own agenda).

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Thomas Sigurdsen]

I have to say I also thought you maybe implied what Martin wrote.

I think you have some assumptions that I don't understand or have; There
definitely looks like some misunderstanding is afoot here.

Technically I find systemd to be abhorent, but I don't see how it violates
the four freedoms. Please enlighten me if they do.

I also wonder what is wrong with the four freedoms?

I mean, I think what I understand Ludovic is intending when he says GuixSD is
the emacs of operating systems is very important (the ease of exercising the
four freedoms); less we end up with docker in vagrant in docker in vagrant in
docker ontop of hardware to be able to run a web browser. But if people want
to develop and use those kinds of systems I don't see a problem with free
software. I see a bunch of other problems, but I have guixsd and don't care
to much what everyone chooses (though I'll tell them how wonderful my/our
system is).

On Wed, 04 Apr 2018 17:33:52 +0200
Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry, I'm not subscribed to this list. Hopefully this reply comes in
> correct thread order. 
> 
> > Hi,
> >   
> > > And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
> > > Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one
> > > of the 4
> > > freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
> > >       * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
> > >         does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
> > >         source code is a precondition for this.  
> > 
> > 
> > Freedom 1 gives you the right to change the software for yourself, but
> > not the right to force others to change their version.  
> 
> What made you think of that? I've not said anything about "forcing others to
> change their version"
> 
> > > It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing
> > > such definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of
> > > freedoms  
> > of the users of software. Especially in view of that most Free Software
> > nowadays is developed by commercial players, having their own agenda,
> > actively alienating their users (and non-paid, spare time developers).  
> > >   
> > 
> > Do you mean software, where the users can dictate the author what should
> > be changed/made in its software?  
> 
> Again, I don't understand you. Never heard about software where the users
> have any say in what's being developed except when they pay for it. And as
> you know money rules. But one fact is that corporations hiring people to
> develop software are doing that for a purpose (and they all have their own
> agenda).
> 
> 

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Mark H Weaver]

Hi Svante,

Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> writes:

> And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
> Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one of the 4
> freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
>       * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
>         does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
>         source code is a precondition for this.

Can you elaborate on how you believe systemd is violating Freedom 1?  Is
your freedom to study systemd, or to change it, being violated somehow?
I don't understand.

      Mark

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Mark H Weaver]

Svante Signell <svante.signell@gmail.com> writes:

> It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing such
> definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of freedoms of
> the users of software.

The Free Software Definition is already expressed in terms of the
freedoms of the users of software.  It says "A program is free software
if the program's users have the four essential freedoms", and then
proceeds to list the 4 freedoms:

  https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

What do you believe is missing from the definition of free software?
How would you propose to change it?

     Regards,
       Mark

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi all,

I think that discussions about systemd, the stated or suspected
motivations of its developers, and how it relates to free software are
not really on-topic for this list.

For discussions of the implications for developers of GNU+Linux
distributions that are currently using systemd, and whether or not free
distributions should use it, I would like to suggest to move this
discussion to gnu-system-discuss or a similar list.

This list is for the development of Guix and GuixSD, which does not need
or use systemd, so a discussion about systemd wouldn’t have any effect
on the design of GuixSD anyway.

Thanks!

--
Ricardo

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Nils Gillmann]

Memory might serve me wrong, but I think we had such a april's fool
in the last years before and it backfired equally *and* we agreed
on not doing it again?
Would be good if people had more sense for spotting sarcasm and
humor, but not everyone has this.

Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Nils Gillmann <ng0@n0.is> writes:

> Memory might serve me wrong, but I think we had such a april's fool
> in the last years before and it backfired equally *and* we agreed
> on not doing it again?

I don’t think this happened.

I only found one in 2014:

  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2014-04/msg00000.html

(I wonder how the work to rewrite Guix in ECMAscript is coming along…)

In other years we don’t seem to have had any April Fools posting on
guix-devel, as far as I can see, which is a little sad :)

I for one am looking forward to the next one.

--
Ricardo

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Re: An April 1 joke? Re: [PATCH] gnu: Add systemd.

[Tomáš Čech]

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Hello,

On Wed, Apr 04, 2018 at 02:49:51PM +0200, Svante Signell wrote:
> ...
>
>And the same happens again: He does not condemn systemd, calling it Free
>Software due to the GPL license. In my opinion systemd is violating one of the 4
>freeedoms of GPL: Freedom 1 (as well as the *NIX and KISS philosophy)
>      * The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it
>        does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the
>        source code is a precondition for this.
>
>It's really time for a re-definition of Free Software, not only basing such
>definitions solely on the license at hand. It is also a matter of freedoms of
>the users of software. Especially in view of that most Free Software nowadays is
>developed by commercial players, having their own agenda, actively alienating
>their users (and non-paid, spare time developers).

could please you explain me your point of view?

I can see systemd's source code published on github with the license
guaranteeing me that I can study it and fork it to change it.

Best regards,

S_W

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