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Fri, 17 Jun 2022 11:52:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Philip McGrath To: Maxime Devos , Guix Devel , Liliana Marie Prikler , zimoun Cc: "(" Subject: Re: FSDG-compatibility of APSL-2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 11:52:25 -0400 Message-ID: <1908610.yKVeVyVuyW@avalon> In-Reply-To: <87ilozxsoc.fsf@gmail.com> References: <7b05425306ead2c333e7671a7c32b4164e4b6a50.camel@telenet.be> <87ilozxsoc.fsf@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="nextPart2072920.OBFZWjSADL"; micalg="pgp-sha512"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=64.147.123.19; envelope-from=philip@philipmcgrath.com; helo=wout3-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1655481202; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=GxEpkGS8wRQEBi/fEehseUFR0Tpsaj8uT7ia06bKvsE=; b=p90DEmY0dQm6DBjCmQYrCxD5CSCv9HLRRMg06z4B5A7WNAyi4goXEDKjSqgcE3PX4zlGbQ n4+zd3XlOVnO2dJTYZf9h8ib9UT9H/Tn/zF4Ly/aetTvyG2sF4bnIzLKR9a0bMslgfo74z Ui3RE3PjN/8Sr9MJbzVk8ixB6b5zn/2GjryxlukAW6nUpvbf84Uf7IL56JErOSJ88rL+jP +cJ8m5SLZieCLv9/k7gSXKj2yTRH0nfWFjLlCk7s7Tav3o69kX1hDCmmf9NfCCX64VwgaA gHPKRTDYAFxR8VH9Y3w5mVQ+LYMyxeWzjP6XA97sKH0OcJ+Ee2BbPFfKWJ7GMQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1655481202; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=Gpw6HaDvXRoBLClig3bW64AS3fvinkrMUkF/6Eent5d9N4r/7pGCv1QnQ48Gnr5oUpqpzQ Xi7wlNRzHQjlZyFz8cc9pytN+PoUbLAJToa+MEs2jLIz++uZv6l55mW+H7FWadbEtIAX1K IXVXadgUv1M0h631JYlTAAaj22bJARcBuQvnv8hKU8Apre64nm4m9xw48/O4YDyAiWRzdr Dk3J1ye/jLuMsd3SV6/U6sYx+Qo5poY45nt/je3H3nO5ZiVFIYOaQdXIzyGK+8TR2O3l96 BUZQuDfLrshgFAgMTULGa9hdkx8MmnikC3UjEOu5yjfmYGj0Ef1xNX8FKZwhxQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=philipmcgrath.com header.s=fm2 header.b="H 3ta93r"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=ZPAsmCNm; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 0.31 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=philipmcgrath.com header.s=fm2 header.b="H 3ta93r"; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=ZPAsmCNm; dmarc=none; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 59965B631 X-Spam-Score: 0.31 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: H4HBTyycGrcL --nextPart2072920.OBFZWjSADL Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; protected-headers="v1" From: Philip McGrath Cc: "(" Subject: Re: FSDG-compatibility of APSL-2.0 Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2022 11:52:25 -0400 Message-ID: <1908610.yKVeVyVuyW@avalon> In-Reply-To: <87ilozxsoc.fsf@gmail.com> Hi, On Friday, June 17, 2022 10:37:07 AM EDT zimoun wrote: > =20 > On the other hand, I refuse to judge the intent behind a software. It > appears to me a slippery slope. The only way is to set a clear frame > and then scrutinize using this very frame. Debian defines a frame, GNU > defines another frame, etc. and each project qualifies via this frame. >=20 > Guix is part of GNU and the GNU project lists the acceptable and > unacceptable licenses. >=20 > Again, if the Guix project would like to apply a more stringent license > policy than the GNU one, then the question is according to which frame. >=20 Yes: I think the most ideal license policy has yet to be invented, and I'm= =20 glad the Debian Free Software Guidelines and the Free System Distribution=20 Guidelines both exist and provide some valuable critiques of each other.=20 (Neither is a subset of the other!) I do think the guidelines should be ope= n=20 to (good faith) discussion and debate. But forking the license standards=20 caries big costs: maybe even some literal ones, but certainly in terms of=20 effort=E2=80=94from idealists who think about these principles, from distri= butions who=20 have a smaller set of collaborators among whom to share the work of evaluat= ing=20 license issues, and from freedom-loving upstream developers who want to=20 publish software everyone can accept without patching. At least for me,=20 whatever marginal improvement could be made (with respect to my idiosyncrat= ic=20 opinion) just doesn't seem worth it. > > On Fri, 17 Jun 2022 at 11:39, Maxime Devos wrote: > > ... currently Guix isn't using the APSL2.0 anywhere (according to git > > grep -F aspl), so it seems quite practical and effortless to just > > remove apsl2 from (guix licenses). >=20 > It is maybe used by Chromium. >=20 > I have nothing against removing APSL2.0 if it is not currently used. > However, I think the Guix project should continue to accept all software > using the licenses on GNU list [1]. >=20 > About patch#55998, the question is about dependencies and linking > because APSL is incompatible with the GPL. If all is fine, then let > include =E2=80=99cctools=E2=80=99 in Guix. >=20 I'll say just a bit about the practical motivation for this patch. Assuming we agree that it's beneficial for at least some free software to b= e=20 able to run on non-free operating systems, that means some free software=20 developers have to build software for those systems. For Windows, MinGW let= s=20 us do so without having to leave the free world. For Apple platforms, the=20 status quo is that someone has to buy or get access to a piece of hardware= =20 sold the nonfree os. Maybe, with a lot of effort, you can cross-compile by= =20 downloading a nonfree binary bundle. Patch 55998 doesn't solve that problem, but it at least takes a step toward= =20 being *less* reliant on a nonfree toolchain. The particular utility that I'= ve=20 used so far [1] is significant enough that part of its functionality=20 (unfortunately not the part I needed) had been implemented in Racket [2], a= nd=20 I believe other compilers or package managers have done similarly. (I plan to write more about how this experiment worked out once various loo= se=20 ends have been tied up.) This is possible because we *do* have the freedom to use, study, modify, an= d=20 distribute major components of the toolchain and operating system kernel.=20 Requiring something other than those freedoms would perversely increase the= =20 reliance on nonfree systems for building free software. I think the dependency and linking issues, to whatever extent they existed,= =20 are resolved by v2 of the patch. The only GPL file was a header from GDB wh= ich=20 seemed to be left over from before Apple switched to an LLVM/Clang toolchai= n:=20 it wasn't actually used by anything, so just deleting the file worked out f= ine.=20 (Not being a lawyer, I can only speculate about whether it might have been= =20 fair use anyway under Google v. Oracle.) There are a few files or parts of = them=20 under miscellaneous permissive Expat- or BSD-like licenses. The only linkin= g=20 is with things like libc that have sufficiently permissions. =2DPhilip [1]: https://github.com/LiberalArtist/native-libgit2-pkgs/tree/build-scripts [2]: https://github.com/racket/racket/blob/master/racket/src/mac/ install_name_tool.rkt [3]: https://issues.guix.gnu.org/55998#23 --nextPart2072920.OBFZWjSADL Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: This is a digitally signed message part. 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