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bh=Gyfq6/K6E5VSnsElTDDeaSj0Dq4g6G4nUXl4RVYSbMs=; b=PdIrGak1rHRfn1PqXF/k43hsTr09PoZ2VK78cwtFKBiQdGF2yuKvYyJ2DfGG5xus g/m36BHSoVqDQ3lEGdPpIgJdDjEbl9DsMVr46hZvY+JJSDuUNlBpr3lnF6B2TnOwp+X Wv3r8/Ylqeyb1KRDvS8nHIRzl5uuJJIUeehWZ6Yc= Received: from mail.zoho.com by mx.zohomail.com with SMTP id 1697487524202420.38311109036977; Mon, 16 Oct 2023 13:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2023 22:18:44 +0200 From: Matt To: "Samuel Christie" Cc: "Samuel Christie via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution."" , "Ekaitz Zarraga" , "MSavoritias" Message-ID: <18b3a24114f.e66ea6b1235588.3958425111160808928@excalamus.com> In-Reply-To: <87h6niffpl.fsf_-_@sdf.org> References: <87msyhgccg.fsf@disroot.org> <547c097a-d805-9a55-11d9-b0434327f89d@gmail.com> <871qfpjhiz.fsf@gmail.com> <87a5udaq7q.fsf@envs.net> <87il8z9yw8.fsf@xelera.eu> <7364531e-5816-799d-5c71-621892082e48@fannys.me> <87h6niffpl.fsf_-_@sdf.org> Subject: Re: Enabling contribution through documentation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Importance: Medium User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail Received-SPF: pass client-ip=136.143.184.18; envelope-from=matt@excalamus.com; helo=sender3-op-o18.zoho.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US X-Spam-Score: -7.86 X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 99BA272498 X-Migadu-Scanner: mx0.migadu.com X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -7.86 X-TUID: dFHts43698Fw One elephant was already spoken about. Your message points toward another:= the Guile documentation. The Guile documentation needs significant editin= g. This is a problem because Guix is forever bound to Guile. For every benefi= t Guix gains from Guile, it also suffers by inheriting its shortcomings. ---- On Mon, 25 Sep 2023 17:13:58 +0200 Samuel Christie via "Development = of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." wrote ---=20 > My recommendation consists of three parts: > 1. Write a clear tutorial > ... > Such a tutorial would be helpful for onboarding new contributors=20 > because they don't have to know anything before getting started,=20 > just start at the beginning and follow the steps. The tutorial I=20 > was envisioning would work through the steps of writing a simple=20 > package, testing it, then submitting the patches. I tried this and reached the conclusion that it's not possible without addr= essing shortcomings in the Guile documentation. =20 Specifically, I tried to write a tutorial on packaging GNU Hello. Really, = if I were to look over the shoulder of someone packaging GNU Hello, what wo= uld it look like? Why are they doing what they're doing in addition to wha= t and how. It's not obvious at all. The Cookbook touches on GNU Hello. H= owever, it's hard to see how someone new to the details of Guix packaging, = such as myself, is supposed to go from 'Section 2.1.1 A =E2=80=9CHello Worl= d=E2=80=9D package' to actually packaging something in the wild. All paths= inevitably lead to the Guile manual. Packaging is inherently complex. It requires *at least* knowing something = about Unix-like systems, build systems, and details of software development= ranging from general programming concepts to specific applications to all = the surrounding tooling. =20 A common assumption is that "they don't have to know anything before gettin= g started". Unfortunately, this is not true. Fortunately, we can often ab= stract this away by giving only the necessary information (not easy to do!)= for whatever we're explaining and handing off details to another resource.= This is where the Guile documentation fails Guix. For example, trying to understand (source (origin (method url-fetch) ... ))= , I looked at the Guix documentation. The Guix documentation says, #+begin_quote 'method' A monadic procedure that handles the given URI. https://guix.gnu.org/en/manual/devel/en/html_node/origin-Reference.html #+end_quote I mistook 'method' to be a procedure that takes a URI. But, no, it's a dat= a type. Several problems jump out to me: 1. The documentation assumes you understand how it's laid out. Unless I mi= ssed it, there's no section explaining conventions used by the manual. For= example, https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Format-= of-Descriptions.html 2. There is not a clear way, even within Emacs, to figure out what 'method'= is. You *must* read the Guix manual. This is the other elephant, the sho= rtcomings of editors. 3. How, really, does someone who doesn't know what is meant by "Data Type" = in this context supposed to get that information? How are they to understa= nd what's significant and what's not? Trying to answer this inevitably lea= ds to the Guile documentation. > Would any of you more=20 > experienced developers be willing to "shepherd" me through this=20 > process, and help set up the test environment, etc.? I'd be happy to work alongside you. =20 I'd also be happy to discuss the Guile docs in that mailing list.