Re: Guix (and Guile's) promise, and how to (hopefully) get there

[Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@elenq.tech>]

On 2024-10-27 22:31, Thompson, David wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 27, 2024 at 3:13 PM Ekaitz Zarraga <ekaitz@elenq.tech> wrote:
>>
>> Many people on this project have tried to change GNU from the inside and
>> are very critical with the FSF (see the https://gnu.tools/). I think
>> that's also a good way to do things, changing them from the inside.
>> Fixing them for all our friends. Honestly, the argument of getting
>> distance with GNU and the FSF is too simplistic to be taken seriously.
> 
> Changing GNU/FSF from the inside has been a losing strategy for at
> least a decade, as a conservative estimate. Nothing has meaningfully
> changed for the better and the situation continues to deteriorate both
> socially and infrastructurally. Many have tried to reform GNU, all
> have failed. Some burn out and never return. Those that remain choose
> to inhabit the fringes; projects that are historically GNU but in
> practice are no longer concerned with the project as a whole (Guile
> and Guix, for example.) We unsubscribe from gnu-prog-discuss and move
> on. Thinking that GNU can be changed at this point is what is truly
> too simplistic to be taken seriously. The GNU brand is and has been a
> net negative for Guix. Juli did a great job describing why in an
> earlier message. Every conversation about Guix I stumble upon online
> inevitably derails into a negative discussion about GNU and it's hard
> to break through the noise to explain that Guix is really cool,
> actually. It's not priority #1, but we gotta eschew GNU.
> 
> - Dave

Hi Dave,

I know the gnu.tools have failed to reach their goal, but it should help 
to tell those who don't like Guix just because of the ties to GNU that 
our way to GNU is a little bit different that the one they may not like. 
In any case, it wasn't the main point of my argument.

I don't find Juli's explanation to be universal, neither yours. We all 
know how the drama is handled in the GNU/Linux world: everybody is 
wiling to be heated about things and choose sides. But in the end of the 
day all those heated arguments really mean anything? I don't think so.

The online environments we take part in (yours and mine have some 
overlap) are very biased. VERY.
I think you are underestimating what GNU and the FSF mean to people. 
More specifically, what they mean to people that is part of Guix.

At this very moment, we just cannot cut ties to the FSF as far as I 
understood.

I don't know if cutting ties with GNU would change anything in that 
regard. But as you say, it's not the priority number 1. And we don't 
know for sure, because it's really hard to know, that is actually going 
to fix anything.

As said, it's just your feeling and your anecdotal experience. Andy Tai 
already has spoken to say he contributes to Guix because it is GNU and 
donates to the FSF because he considers it's the foundation that makes 
the greatest use of the money. That is also valuable, and I think you 
are not being considerate enough with people like him.

What kind of diversity are we looking for then?

I also believe promises are meaningless. People that are currently part 
of Guix are already with us, you are proposing something that might 
bring new people, at the cost of some we already have. It doesn't feel 
like a good deal to me.

And in any case, I don't think we are in a position to take a decision 
like this right now. Maybe investing more on the Guix Foundation is a 
good way to enable this kind of decision in the future.

I don't want this to take over the original goal that I had so from now 
I'll focus only on what we can do.

Of course, feel free to continue this line of discussion.

Just let me remind you all: I started this to take more care of each 
other and make sure Guix is sustainable.

Please, let's not forget that.