From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp11.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id yKqAEesiFWKdLQEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:52:43 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:8:6d80::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp11.migadu.com with LMTPS id eBrIDusiFWKdIAAA9RJhRA (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:52:43 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA9102268E for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 18:52:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:53826 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMZL7-0002JP-Cp for larch@yhetil.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:52:41 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:37106) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMZ8I-0004y4-LY for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:39:26 -0500 Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]:40073) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nMZ8F-0002yE-4R for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:39:26 -0500 Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB61C5C0195; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:39:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:39:15 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.com; h= cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from:in-reply-to:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:reply-to:sender:subject :subject:to:to; s=fm2; bh=/5P2HVd7Kh5G4o0FqVkbBHFYHr7HF6QTq5DUad 7Odzg=; b=HIP8QXyW5dVyOC2EFzV/clkDYE0EPSiABswse6Up2c4MNuZN+phlXc xH+xQ6J50c3nDrJbJoZTjQT09w0GDvd56U7VOdq4F6J1we5lssYDhjQqh0tMLjwm FAK7k+4Y63sl3lrFkUh2wZuS488Q0DJxwcpaJJr/i9R2br7kgtt4Y+qHkKim3C7m NbZzc6hmSUnw9F3+NKsPf5dmcNs6LkCzBLoCyqAyhYaqmF/HoxAEwh8AgQ9s+ruw U3UIedEdkOCj7Zn71zZoUs6WIpItcpy9QazUX+fRKzjFZrNyjtK58PpEve81cecX ibxk8bhaxm5DrciPKa++doWD12FaBmyg== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:cc:content-type:date:date:from:from :in-reply-to:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :reply-to:sender:subject:subject:to:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy :x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm2; bh=/5P2HVd7Kh5G4o0Fq VkbBHFYHr7HF6QTq5DUad7Odzg=; b=CNNDq4A9EsRRsXx++CC88+MKJDDqVxOqA tb3z1Pg5wWMB4iAV2OLKEK0/ednDlfZ01/mzjmlJ8NYxdmu73PaX6Do5z1fm/h/3 aKewF60KO5vWx8QHPeja3NsQtkZagW+ntHxcMj7w2xnTgo8xbtmIKHWb7AQwpnZc lwCSw+sgvAkss7eXkaP52dkmk02iuDgwHxHadnrMYEIPJM5GsByCnBGgowslj0F1 xFchyTV8JmGXcjSKpS2cwlvX3xw9zGtFJkmvHnvFD9dPIHZOtcCeNz+zIRe5qpnA +XJprtPidysRN9I51rKXGU2lscqNkGxFRb5Aa+enAaVzvk/IkmBSQ== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedvvddrkeekgddutddvucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhepfffhvffkjghfufggtgesrgdtreertddtjeenucfhrhhomhepvghlrghishes fhgrshhtmhgrihhlrdgtohhmnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepleeuleevteelueejudethe eigedugeektefgfeevieekvdehheegjeeukedvudfgnecuffhomhgrihhnpehgnhhurdho rhhgpdihohhuthhurdgsvgenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmh grihhlfhhrohhmpegvlhgrihhssehfrghsthhmrghilhdrtghomh X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 12:39:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 10:39:01 -0700 From: elais@fastmail.com To: Paul Jewell , Yasuaki Kudo Message-ID: <16c89886-effa-4426-bb86-59055d4f8d6a@Spark> In-Reply-To: <3DE50B35-F5C5-4BC9-8908-1B220181AE93@yasuaki.com> References: <746FC12F-B974-4A59-83CF-8FA848795D37@teulu.org> <3DE50B35-F5C5-4BC9-8908-1B220181AE93@yasuaki.com> Subject: Re: Documentation of what is appropriate for #guix? X-Readdle-Message-ID: 16c89886-effa-4426-bb86-59055d4f8d6a@Spark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="62151fc0_2ca88611_40cf" Received-SPF: pass client-ip=66.111.4.26; envelope-from=elais@fastmail.com; helo=out2-smtp.messagingengine.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_PDS_SHORTFWD_URISHRT_QP=0.01, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645552363; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=/5P2HVd7Kh5G4o0FqVkbBHFYHr7HF6QTq5DUad7Odzg=; b=FkQ4QR5tdrmvNM4bkHhxbP5bRDrV+aJk/lt9ym4tVRfYsOs2VxKaAvztNyUIfypq4UgR2G ovmJHMtAseebz1/EyZj9imZBLBgwOlGJb+DKsEPQaVPV5/cbH+lK+hIvPOY2neiM1TPP4Y i2r6yuAqAs+YH4v+xKVwC8DPeCVnOCimHxrLLTVBTRTrIC6bqT0d704Q8UzpG33DOREAeL liarftiIBcjgbTv0wUooR3gc+q0THVr9xuypIYzqkCawCq48jNNwn8YsE44tBs7paZsYNp 68GPTzACPdgv+cNMqJvHyi6ncdVWkEn2qj4BSsY7pKbSe3I2TTYR11AcdSyCcA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645552363; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=KZt11tyzgj7J5QDCr8N35CnmwWYci+Xa+C3GUz69D04k6JRrNfu0F/ZGsaDc+Ki//DYwhj KnB9N9suW0BjbjpHGvZLd6gfG/srxd3WgOt30Dd182gSDZM+ku9VSqJo33+B7s4H17ZiZC L067TnZPXGFqiAqrZmgAOs6cLpssRZvNhqCSI4b+MNRh7iZrdjXvXs2lD9FGoly0Dcxwqe HahHXWJ4PO/qgQ4Gsm9lEAPEIbJ14/bilkWPyw9gFelmJdsvjuaP6nCQWmqrV0G4sOh+fL MlUMiK/+9GomiV/SR/WeZ5hE/yy+Aqugd/XHYKJ1QScAwdhmYwT2zEGyM1eExQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm2 header.b=HIP8QXyW; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=CNNDq4A9; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=fastmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -0.63 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=fastmail.com header.s=fm2 header.b=HIP8QXyW; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=messagingengine.com header.s=fm2 header.b=CNNDq4A9; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=fastmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: AA9102268E X-Spam-Score: -0.63 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn1.migadu.com X-TUID: b5MHkKvJ8zIR --62151fc0_2ca88611_40cf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline > If we were to set up a separate relaxed Guix > community that accommodates all forms of corruption, one problem would = be the impediments that would exist in communication, especially if the o= riginal Guix takes hostile and non-compromising attitude, I think. The discussion at hand is about clarifying what is on topic new channel u= sers, not relaxing a commitment to not promote non free software. A few s= econds of searching will almost definitely turn up alternatives if that=E2= =80=99s what you=E2=80=99re looking for. That being said I think it would= be helpful to add a few sentences to the chat on irc page=5B1=5D that cl= early state that discussion of non free software is off topic and discour= aged in the Channel. I think it will also help if we add the same message= to the contacts page=5B2=5D as well. 1. https://guix.gnu.org/en/contact/irc/ 2. https://guix.gnu.org/contact/ -- Elais Player On =46eb 22, 2022, 04:48 -0700, Yasuaki Kudo , wrote:= > If we were to set up a separate relaxed Guix community that accommodate= s all forms of corruption, one problem would be the impediments that woul= d exist in communication, especially if the original Guix takes hostile a= nd non-compromising attitude, I think. > > If a question arises from that downgraded community how to do this and = that, precisely to accommodate some unaccountable =C2=A0binary black box = software, the chances of getting helpful answers may not be so high from = the original Guix community. =F0=9F=98=85 > > It is a difficult question - even in the real world the similarities ab= ound. =C2=A0 While it is easy to ignore and isolate North Korea, a countr= y that offers no useful commodity for export (or maybe it does, but let's= say, for the sake of argument), countries like Japan have no problem imp= orting Saudi Arabian oil. Ethics and human rights are thrown out the wind= ow - oil is considered far more important. > > I tend to take the position of strategically 'not caring' =C2=A0(e.g.=C2= =A0https://youtu.be/Blz=5FEu00Kbw=C2=A0) > > Maybe someone like me is called a Libertarian=3F =C2=A0I am not sure...= (for the record, my political philosophy seems to be called Anarcho-Synd= icalism =F0=9F=98=84) > > But I still think a parallel community might be in order =F0=9F=98=84 > > -Yasu > > > > On =46eb 22, 2022, at 07:36, Paul Jewell wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 21 =46eb 2022, at 19:10, raingloom > > > > > By the way, I think it's kind of silly that that is completely bann= ed > > > from discussion. When I wanted help on getting my GPU to work, I > > > mentioned for reference purposes that I tried the proprietary drive= r > > > from The =46orbidden Channel - and was subsequently warned that I m= ust > > > not do that. > > > > I understand that the position taken by guix is more nuanced than tha= t. The project doesn=E2=80=99t seek to control what you run on your compu= ter, but won=E2=80=99t support your choice to run non-free software in th= e official channels. > > > > > Which I find ridiculous. You can't even discuss results > > > obtained by running closed source drivers and firmware, so how do y= ou > > > debug the libre firmwares and drivers, when you have nothing to com= pare > > > against=3F > > But you can discuss these results elsewhere. > > > > > Also, I think people who want to overwhelmingly use free software b= ut > > > need proprietary drivers for their computer to function should be > > > offered better help than =22buy a new computer=22. > > > > I kind of agree with you here. I don=E2=80=99t want to obsolete perfe= ctly viable hardware, but instead want to use it for its whole life. Next= time I am in the market for new hardware, then I will have the ability t= o run libre-software as a pre-condition for purchase. > > > > > I think The =46orbidden Channel should be raised to a status simila= r to > > > the AUR: it's recognized and its existence is documented, but all > > > responsibility is very explicitly disclaimed and support is relegat= ed > > > to special channels. > > > > Users will find it even the way it is configured today. I don=E2=80=99= t think it needs any sort of official recognition or promotion, as that w= ill go against the project goals/rules (as I understand it). We should al= ways be aware of the insidious nature of proprietary firmware/software, a= nd work to eliminate the need for it, rather than indicating that its use= is acceptable as a first choice. > > > > > > Best regards, > > Paul --62151fc0_2ca88611_40cf Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
If we were to set up a separate relaxed Guix
community that accommodates all forms of corruption, one problem would be= the impediments that would exist in communication, especially if the ori= ginal Guix takes hostile and non-compromising attitude, I think.

The discussion at hand is about clarifying what is on topic new channel u= sers, not relaxing a commitment to not promote non free software. A few s= econds of searching will almost definitely turn up alternatives if that=E2= =80=99s what you=E2=80=99re looking for. That being said I think it would= be helpful to add a few sentences to the chat on irc page=5B1=5D that cl= early state that discussion of non free software is off topic and discour= aged in the Channel. I think it will also help if we add the same message= to the contacts page=5B2=5D as well.
  1. https://guix.gnu.org/en/contact/irc/
  2. https://guix.gnu.org/contact/

-- Elais Player

On =46eb 22, 2022, 04:48 -0700, Yas= uaki Kudo <yasu=40yasuaki.com>, wrote:
If we were to set up a separate relaxed Guix communi= ty that accommodates all forms of corruption, one problem would be the im= pediments that would exist in communication, especially if the original G= uix takes hostile and non-compromising attitude, I think.

If a question arises from that downgraded community = how to do this and that, precisely to accommodate some unaccountable &=23= 160;binary black box software, the chances of getting helpful answers may= not be so high from the original Guix community. =F0=9F=98=85

It is a difficult question - even in the real world = the similarities abound. &=23160; While it is easy to ignore and isolate = North Korea, a country that offers no useful commodity for export (or may= be it does, but let's say, for the sake of argument), countries like Japa= n have no problem importing Saudi Arabian oil. Ethics and human rights ar= e thrown out the window - oil is considered far more important.

I tend to take the position of strategically 'not ca= ring' &=23160;(e.g.&=23160;https://youtu.be/Blz=5FEu00Kbw&=23160;)

Maybe someone like me is called a Libertarian=3F &=23= 160;I am not sure... (for the record, my political philosophy seems to be= called Anarcho-Syndicalism =F0=9F=98=84)

But I still think a parallel community might be in o= rder =F0=9F=98=84

-Yasu


On =46eb 22, 2022, at 07:36, Paul Jewell &l= t;paul=40teulu.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

On 21 =46eb 2022, at 19:10, raingloom= <raingloom=40riseup.net>

By the way, I think it's kind of sill= y that that is completely banned
from discussion. When I wanted help o= n getting my GPU to work, I
mentioned for reference purposes that= I tried the proprietary driver
from The =46orbidden Channel - and wa= s subsequently warned that I must
not do that.

I understand that the position taken by guix is more nuanced than t= hat. The project doesn=E2=80=99t seek to control what you run on your com= puter, but won=E2=80=99t support your choice to run non-free software in = the official channels.

Which I find ridiculous. You can't ev= en discuss results
obtained by running closed source dri= vers and firmware, so how do you
debug the libre firmwares and drivers= , when you have nothing to compare
against=3F
But you can discuss these results elsewhere.

Also, I think people who want to over= whelmingly use free software but
need proprietary drivers for their co= mputer to function should be
offered better help than =22buy a new= computer=22.

I kind of agree with you here. I don=E2=80=99t want to obsolete per= fectly viable hardware, but instead want to use it for its whole life. Ne= xt time I am in the market for new hardware, then I will have the ability= to run libre-software as a pre-condition for purchase.

I think The =46orbidden Channel shoul= d be raised to a status similar to
the AUR: it's recognized and its exis= tence is documented, but all
responsibility is very explicitly dis= claimed and support is relegated
to special channels.

Users will find it even the way it is configured today. I don=E2=80= =99t think it needs any sort of official recognition or promotion, as tha= t will go against the project goals/rules (as I understand it). We should= always be aware of the insidious nature of proprietary firmware/software= , and work to eliminate the need for it, rather than indicating that its = use is acceptable as a first choice.


Best regards,
Paul
--62151fc0_2ca88611_40cf--