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From: Liliana Marie Prikler To: Simon Josefsson , guix-devel@gnu.org Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2022 09:51:36 +0100 In-Reply-To: <875yf1qtfq.fsf@latte> References: <875yf1qtfq.fsf@latte> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.46.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::444; envelope-from=liliana.prikler@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x444.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1669539131; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=fbRps1ochGdFuYlOlhcecCoNM/8YA34N59y4HQxwYqc=; b=jpMEjaAE/+rVSxXFxKVZpm+vUTcPUOFZspq9P/L/uvSAljXQCwpbwqrRumSeJ1hLGEvJMf +uN8mcHaF98mtLhZljeUykWopGLrQaspSS22h0dui/yfLNfhAipS+YHegkAirSZ0LVQcNj ke3jbjd9zw4HL9coKDRjYD6vA8WZL9IhzGITQg4gjcqiS9WZY1wnYxbI8k6njvHusRSjRA 3OQid6WATrTn2dNuuB91uqeRkcFhJ1G1M7nsM/hLYtbNktP99acoWZUzOSnp77yCDdmI+0 +3UWn+fqW6Shsu2t9i//4ntEizKs7v8bmBBzo8Z3RCzJ28/exjByOseqzB3kyQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1669539131; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=F+aXqgHCYUlBnd/lXAttHTeGDYmiBmnnWRc3G3SK0WrKIAsjsjSjXyCg04ThqZE4Swd3e4 4HprMUvxlld2JIkLJUFeFQ4bhXcJ7ppyXNg7odPaIJNUHtkoiegEZ4bsLxXU3wNcKj0msA K83q0SK82jtorklN63Zuered0oe4hfWDMiJVTmsGAhoApUdMZrMLnXkdMiV70Ct0GY0CRL KfKqTnENfB5ZEg3cLcho46KMQvBJapMR6ah0ln0SkoBdly5Bq4rGeG/d9mvrNyT6eaIBTA I5RogbrE7QXRYye8mN2KIcXKfWnGJcRHI6a8RpPIG5zHVyCjLldFQL9zngn1bg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=lNpWxeHZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -5.26 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=lNpWxeHZ; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 10A7B1E572 X-Spam-Score: -5.26 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: o9DvfpYTbLz8 Hi Simon, Am Samstag, dem 26.11.2022 um 22:47 +0100 schrieb Simon Josefsson via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.: > Hi >=20 > I find use of the term 'advanced' wrt Guix confusing and even mildly > excluding, even though it is wide-spread.=C2=A0 What is advanced about > Guix? Guix is advanced =E2=80=93 or perhaps more accurately revolutionary =E2=80= =93 in a cultural sense. Other well-known GNU distributions take an already established non-GNU distribution and remove software that do not respect user freedom. See [1]: 5 out of 8 GNU distributions are "based on" other distros. Guix does not inherit any of that, it has its own way of describing packages as well as its own way of describing anything else that goes into an operating system. You may see similarity with Nix mentioned from time to time on social media and elsewhere, but that really is just a shallow lake under a huge castle. > Can I use it even if I'm not an advanced user?=C2=A0=C2=A0 Probably maybe. Whether or not you're an advanced user doesn't really have any weight in there, but to get the "true" experience of a free operating system, you do need the right hardware. =C2=A0"Advanced" users ar= e more likely to pick their parts correctly given the existing recommendations, but that's knowledge that can be achieved through trial and error. > What do others think? About you using Guix user even though your not a "power" user? Not much, really. We'll be happy to solve problems if they arise both in the IRC and on help-guix@gnu.org As for people, who do not use or maybe haven't even heard of Guix, I do think a fair amount of them would treat you as though you announced that you're vegan at some barbecue if you told them that you're going to use or are already using a completely free, declarative operating system. =20 > Is there some historical background for this description of Guix? Guix is historically very avant-garde, also with its reduction of the bootstrap seed based on Mes, or its bootstrapping of the Java ecosystem and other parts of the software world. > How about the attached patch to merely drop this term in some place? I don't think dropping it would be a good idea. For one, it does have an actual meaning as described above, but also, it evokes a feeling that Guix is something capable of doing "real world user stuff" and not just a neat toy. And we definitely want to be in the former category. > I would happily agree that Guix supports and encourages advanced > features.=C2=A0 But that is not exactly the same as saying Guix itself is > advanced.=C2=A0 If we want to use the term, I think it would be better to > rephrase things as 'Guix supports advanced features such as X, Y and > Z' if we really want to drive home that we are advanced. It's not that Guix "supports" advanced features. Guix itself is an advanced way of doing the things Guix does, namely package management, system management, container/vm spawning, ... > I would prefer to use a basic or even simple operating system, and > I'd like to think Guix can be that for me, but maybe everyone has > different preferences, so maybe it doesn't really have to say > anything. Guix is simple, but basic only in that it breaks basically every existing tradition before it. Depending on your actual needs =E2=80=93 e.g= . small disk footprint =E2=80=93 there might be some that we are not going to satisfy, but you're welcome to try and see if it fits regardless. Hope that helps. Cheers, Liliana [1] https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html