From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp12.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id IPQqJaIwGWI/QAEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 20:40:18 +0100 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:bcc0::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp12.migadu.com with LMTPS id uPUHIqIwGWKtEQAAauVa8A (envelope-from ) for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 20:40:18 +0100 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5006F429DF for ; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 20:40:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost ([::1]:33696 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNgRs-00019E-EB for larch@yhetil.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:40:16 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:42386) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNgRA-00018Q-RG for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:39:32 -0500 Received: from mail.arctype.co ([138.68.9.245]:54557) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nNgR7-00022i-Aq for guix-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 14:39:31 -0500 Received: from authenticated-user (mail.arctype.co [138.68.9.245]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.arctype.co (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9ED3813B21F; Fri, 25 Feb 2022 19:29:20 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=arctype.co; s=mail; t=1645817360; bh=jNYQpaSAwqRpupQpwwaCl9lgi9nfSsAS5AILOGIhL80=; h=Date:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:To:CC:From:From; b=nGB3J9uw9Mld6Z2durvdOIxzzRQ7WVP3uQ7WxH2bym9pJ200GtEjdbTUPSobHvy73 jjVzQYeGoEw0EW9xYl0Z/6rWskU+++MK1v3f/gT7iok6BovCz0HTyuuVfe4H+e6miQ l4KVb4esIoVkt+cc3O/4KCpOOBd5tFtBTnyE+kVRGwngxLpGVjvjGAAcYAhqWVUo2B Btl2c8MNjbUCr0J7LmnOeTjnnm8bHiTu5eaVmiFqhO9farm9xKBgwZuE1Pghu+qJkJ u8ysPEuXEmlG/JDbRDxH7mSYlW6PCIIxKG5P9SJGABSbs0H21gPA1zFYIjq2g8vWW/ MzomYmyouTSQA== Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2022 11:29:16 -0800 In-Reply-To: References: <8735k7560k.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----F7228QX1QY8YOS52JJ1222V5RKMKLW" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2.1 (instead of 1.4) To: guix-devel@gnu.org, Taylan Kammer , Blake Shaw , zimoun CC: Guix Devel Message-ID: <0ABE8334-99D8-43AC-A526-65975361084E@arctype.co> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=138.68.9.245; envelope-from=ryan@arctype.co; helo=mail.arctype.co X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" Reply-to: Ryan Sundberg From: Ryan Sundberg via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1645818018; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=ISxwCiuZvNTOCvt/J8NTZeXtcDzh3iRheA/b/BKSrsI=; b=f1QTvO7QWtoXkRWyuJrNc0Y/hvjogVq/GWkOty5Vpjxy8zWBW6QVvn3b6o9o4ZyrBaysAg p/ngkdGbOKT5ygAKt+cXaSWfwAjOnSyU71fU7egTeTcinBRBxy2uejq9LUGgKspY6kQWB1 jxAU2hv3eq7pNwLbIjRtUWJo4S+xf2YS5nlcoXA34Z/Tpgg5cu99EEyDnfeZTUEMEcrpr7 c6Z+zhv+MjOOo5pZFzeuZJ2rQsV3/bfebxLfepNNFswManpDgKhlW9PT8Oit7iHFSfMjAz +ptXfaijoNuTPLw371U94lSscf7w3uFK58cPuVUHuPFzBpF4taDeqLvedE/MoA== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1645818018; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=oT8Ts1YhPYRIHy+R/p8mzSUXAbUcI3NWtdO8wfI3k0166vEF+xISdHZaequp0iQwqL/YI4 sFyDM6zeemHh7XzN5QoAGIHXIzquawCsP38ctSkY/yUPguQn5ETJ+a3+ouQbnJVkZbPfHz UWSzBBcUdAHg757CZSCgSFwVMJeogm1W9Y1jYcQD47mtco9UlVafeQcuQwhDstg8+Zw7W8 JFz1h+8yCfxLLYxBFZv1rsEeNI3d/RX66tRCoeqYnjFna7/eaS8IUSfc76uJJZazk0KRAO 2tCKdqX6MWwSKGSHB/ZLLkFqu5lkLe34rW3PXyuE2aKJSg/fRvvZoBI/3Xa+Sg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=arctype.co header.s=mail header.b=nGB3J9uw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -2.63 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=arctype.co header.s=mail header.b=nGB3J9uw; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gnu.org; spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 5006F429DF X-Spam-Score: -2.63 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: ZKgYcLPMlRZh ------F7228QX1QY8YOS52JJ1222V5RKMKLW Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a hetero white male from the USA and I would appreciate it if we could = keep this mailing focused on software development instead of feminist trans= gender meta discussion=2E It seems quite settled nobody else finds the code= of conduct lacking in practice so we should probably just move on and acce= pt that this is a place for discussing Guix and not for making every paragr= aph of text conform perfectly with everyone's worldview=2E Sincerely, Ryan Sundberg Principal Software Engineer Arctype Corporation (916) 622-2449 -------- Original Message -------- From: Taylan Kammer Sent: February 25, 2022 9:29:29 AM PST To: Blake Shaw , zimoun Cc: Guix Devel Subject: Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2=2E1 (instead of 1=2E4) On 25=2E02=2E2022 16:18, Blake Shaw wrote: > zimoun writes: >=20 > My position remains unchanged: our codes of conduct should do everything > possible to be as inclusive as and open to peoples of marginalized > groups that are discriminated against=2E White cis men shouldn't be in > charge of deciding whats best for these people=2E=20 >=20 > As far as I can see, not a single woman has come forward to say that > proposed CoC amendments would benefit or protect them in any way=2E In > fact the opposite is the case: two have come forward to say that this > appears as ploy by men to debate their gender and experience=2E >=20 > Why are white men so insistent on making changes that would supposedly > increase inclusivity, despite those from marginalized backgrounds saying > the opposite is the case here? >=20 > Until a fem contributor comes forward to say that they feel changes > to the current CoC would bring about some tangible protection to them, > it seems to me that this discourse is a case of the dominant white cis > males making changes to "protect women" without the consent of women, > which has never fared well in history=2E >=20 > So with that said, I think decisions concerning women should be left to > women (all women!) to decide=2E >=20 > ez, > b >=20 I'm a visibly middle-eastern person living in Germany, and I'm not cisgender=2E Not that it matters=2E The worldview I've wished for the CoC to respect, in addition to those it already respects, is one that comes from a long line of feminist scholars and activists=2E The inclusion of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues faced by female-born people=2E As far as I'm aware, no female-born person has taken part in the discussion at all, because none seem to exist in the community=2E (What a coincidence=2E) Anyhow, Zimoun's proposal is merely to update the CoC to upstream, which continues to be authored by a transwoman, if that matters=2E --=20 Taylan ------F7228QX1QY8YOS52JJ1222V5RKMKLW Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm a hetero white male from the USA and I would a= ppreciate it if we could keep this mailing focused on software development = instead of feminist transgender meta discussion=2E It seems quite settled n= obody else finds the code of conduct lacking in practice so we should proba= bly just move on and accept that this is a place for discussing Guix and no= t for making every paragraph of text conform perfectly with everyone's worl= dview=2E


Sincerely,

Ryan Sundberg
Principal Software E= ngineer
Arctype Corporation
(916) 622-2449

From: Taylan Kammer <taylan=2Ekammer@gmail=2Ecom>
Sent: February 25, 2022 9:29:29 AM PST
To: Blake Shaw <blake@nonconstructivism=2Ecom>, zimoun <zi= mon=2Etoutoune@gmail=2Ecom>
Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@gnu=2Eorg>
Subject: Re: Update CoC adapted from upstream 2=2E1 (instead of 1= =2E4)

On 25=2E02=2E2022 16:18, Blake Shaw wrote:
zimoun <zimon=2Etoutoune@gmai=
l=2Ecom> writes:

My position remains unchanged: our codes of cond=
uct should do everything
possible to be as inclusive as and open to peop=
les of marginalized
groups that are discriminated against=2E White cis m=
en shouldn't be in
charge of deciding whats best for these people=2E 
As far as I can see, not a single woman has come forward to say thatproposed CoC amendments would benefit or protect them in any way=2E Infact the opposite is the case: two have come forward to say that this
a=
ppears as ploy by men to debate their gender and experience=2E

Why a=
re white men so insistent on making changes that would supposedly
increa=
se inclusivity, despite those from marginalized backgrounds saying
the o=
pposite is the case here?

Until a fem contributor comes forward to s=
ay that they feel changes
to the current CoC would bring about some tang=
ible protection to them,
it seems to me that this discourse is a case of=
 the dominant white cis
males making changes to "protect women" without =
the consent of women,
which has never fared well in history=2E

So=
 with that said, I think decisions concerning women should be left to
wo=
men (all women!) to decide=2E

ez,
b


I'm a=
 visibly middle-eastern person living in Germany, and I'm not
cisgender=
=2E  Not that it matters=2E

The worldview I've wished for the CoC to=
 respect, in addition to
those it already respects, is one that comes fr=
om a long line of
feminist scholars and activists=2E

The inclusio=
n of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues
faced by female-b=
orn people=2E  As far as I'm aware, no female-born
person has taken part=
 in the discussion at all, because none seem
to exist in the community=
=2E  (What a coincidence=2E)

Anyhow, Zimoun's proposal is merely to =
update the CoC to upstream,
which continues to be authored by a transwom=
an, if that matters=2E
------F7228QX1QY8YOS52JJ1222V5RKMKLW--