From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mp1 ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by ms0.migadu.com with LMTPS id UPG1Jg5QxmD3SwEAgWs5BA (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:35:58 +0200 Received: from aspmx1.migadu.com ([2001:41d0:2:4a6f::]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits)) by mp1 with LMTPS id CLzJIQ5QxmCPGwAAbx9fmQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 18:35:58 +0000 Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by aspmx1.migadu.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 166EA15DB3 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:35:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost ([::1]:42800 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lsUxg-0005by-U0 for larch@yhetil.org; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 14:35:56 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45038) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lsUxJ-0005bn-HI for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 14:35:34 -0400 Received: from mailrelay.tugraz.at ([129.27.2.202]:18417) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lsUxB-0007lG-PR for guix-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 14:35:32 -0400 Received: from nijino.local (62-116-34-49.adsl.highway.telekom.at [62.116.34.49]) by mailrelay.tugraz.at (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4G33D72p2Cz1LBRt; Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:35:19 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mailrelay.tugraz.at 4G33D72p2Cz1LBRt DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tugraz.at; s=mailrelay; t=1623609319; bh=pCP8AxHwQSjSf3xG66+JEdEJySXzffxOfc+NmmP2BbI=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=lAHeSRsUkWq/S+EiI1nXEiAXAjVOLcc+kYh7yHgtPciZnxdB7OiJRB9uO8Y0KxNXU H+AWK8VpLRkQFTwfq6WiDEX/rmziAwDVBTt81oKQ9qBVEdACHSN3sCuE322cSYtHW9 Sz9rWYVCNLyO5Upmpm2Dm5CZHW6+E3a3gpC8JeoY= Message-ID: <05c05536dde5660ada17b9f4dc8dc041272c1a4a.camel@student.tugraz.at> Subject: Re: Telemetry on by default kitty From: Leo Prikler To: Leo Famulari Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2021 20:35:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: References: <87fsxm7s69.fsf@disroot.org> <87eed695yb.fsf@nckx> <87czsq7oyl.fsf@disroot.org> <87bl8a92r4.fsf@nckx> <83e3ea6de4daa14a81c826d9200941719abe2f82.camel@student.tugraz.at> <877diy7c7w.fsf@disroot.org> <2e8ede06b4786e4604269b9a7a4a5f04b154040e.camel@student.tugraz.at> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.34.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-TUG-Backscatter-control: bt4lQm5Tva3SBgCuw0EnZw X-Spam-Scanner: SpamAssassin 3.003001 X-Spam-Score-relay: -1.9 X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.74 on 129.27.10.116 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=129.27.2.202; envelope-from=leo.prikler@student.tugraz.at; helo=mailrelay.tugraz.at X-Spam_score_int: -42 X-Spam_score: -4.3 X-Spam_bar: ---- X-Spam_report: (-4.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guix-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1623609358; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:list-id:list-help: list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=pCP8AxHwQSjSf3xG66+JEdEJySXzffxOfc+NmmP2BbI=; b=aUJxlWC2jz8yUJuXdBoFlk0DINyDeh4FwnepKqXP6pgUlKVr0loyNgRU+QVSTkKZQD3qq7 osBnWsf47a9X+4KK/wcNLSZA1lXX+OPvFzux3qBCXLI5NSrtexKcGIX4xmd1h8zFYvCDHw 7fwhNkI0Lv8v1sV/MzP4TvESpaBGkjeljwDXnZpfJEMsYgiwV/3y3jIQIg4EZDfYnmzBiD Xbv/tIWSIZmbSWJZQ1vjoR0toeDfyTyVlogmNEADu3uWzSXc5j6FoEU2q6Lg3EZu5hB3li lXqt5u/qOauVCEWFyT2XlTRp9gJUmkmAqg0fhjf6KVXcksyGw1ExEsU1raLPMQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1623609358; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=BcRc6QlyOKZhsZfrAcLvBHwfWLjG+qUeldSZbWAL4uW1Khy7fiWamH6flY7+iDWKXhXcUv 6vO6d+XG4xE6Q+uXpWJQeUzInSxZlIvu/IxVVIzmIsbHnOhFbnk4KQNd5sEf35t+SVg01s XNZdDSBTpLAnrkq9ThiXhczfuCNYWW7QmaEoCDSHOtBlrS/GklpN8M75wjHv/L1j+TgAIr kHEHRSnZtVAFqERuRbNcIezV2QSAJ4ptdmDyDBusCUH5XRg5f3l6TZmGEVXuKr95uGjw5f cCEWQDZf2J14xZKpYe3QW9IxWyGW795SkjNIyD+0sT556Zfqj5/UdnP40PbPQw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tugraz.at header.s=mailrelay header.b=lAHeSRsU; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=student.tugraz.at (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Spam-Score: -1.32 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=tugraz.at header.s=mailrelay header.b=lAHeSRsU; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=student.tugraz.at (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=guix-devel-bounces@gnu.org X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 166EA15DB3 X-Spam-Score: -1.32 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: +Vf3a+e405CB Am Sonntag, den 13.06.2021, 13:57 -0400 schrieb Leo Famulari: > On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:32:01AM +0200, Leo Prikler wrote: > > Of course, there's the added bonus of the lead developer > > expressing their views in a… rather aggressive tone to put it > > mildly, > > but that's a social problem. > > To be fair to the author, the bug report described a simple update > notifier as "surveillance" and said that Goyal is contributing "to > the > normalization of surveillance in GNU/Linux software." > > Those are opinions, not facts. Point taken, that too is a social problem. The fact, that the patch in question was like one line, does not help either. > The bug reporter's social skills were also quite poor; you don't > begin > to ask for something by using pejorative terms and accusing people of > doing something nefarious. It is insulting. I read that in a somewhat different way, but I do agree with your statement. > Because Kitty has an automatic update notifier built-in, it's obvious > that Kitty is intended to be distributed outside of the old-school > GNU/Linux distro model, and that means that automatic updates are > expected and valuable. Distros like Guix are the entities who are > doing something weird in this scenario. I see the same. Much software has built its own update channels, because the ones supported by mainstream distros typically don't cut it. It's even worse if you want to supply other platforms as well. Even Emacs has its own package repo :P > Not to mention that telemetry about crashes and usage are extremely > valuable for developers. The free software community's resistance to > that kind of automated feedback is an important factor in the overall > low quality of free software relative to other non-free operating > systems, in my opinion. There are many reasons that "the masses" > choose > not to use GNU/Linux despite extremely widespread popular > dissatisfaction with "big tech", and low quality and poor integration > is > a big one, in my experience. Perhaps it's valuable for developers, but as a user I often have next to no information about what data gets collected and for which purpose, both of which are important for *informed consent*. If "the masses" don't really care about the data being collected and would rather see improvements on their software, they are free to enable telemetry – that's what opt-in is for – but my personal opinion on this is that you're going to have a hard time convincing people, that you actually only collect reasonable amounts and use them with respect for privacy rights. Regards, Leo