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Sat, 16 Jul 2022 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:48443) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oCoes-0002OC-86 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 16:45:02 -0400 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1oCoer-0006fQ-TD for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sat, 16 Jul 2022 16:45:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Subject: bug#56582: Installer does not detect or allow detection of other bootable partitions Resent-From: Peter Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-guix@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2022 20:45:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 56582 X-GNU-PR-Package: guix X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Julien Lepiller Cc: Josselin Poiret , 56582@debbugs.gnu.org Received: via spool by 56582-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B56582.165800427825581 (code B ref 56582); Sat, 16 Jul 2022 20:45:01 +0000 Received: (at 56582) by debbugs.gnu.org; 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boundary="0000000000006ca1c305e3f2333d" X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-guix@gnu.org List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "bug-Guix" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1658004317; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type:resent-cc:resent-from:resent-sender: resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references: list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-post: dkim-signature; bh=e6zBglruexKzuDydDbzqE6gfjhh/80z2nyGVDuVpRDc=; b=AQAiRwWK/YKHI1Guz1HaHGUrdLwA33KTqrJQb/X3pKZu0u8H5RRCNW78FDddBPjpsXiQo8 HBYNCyfrjn70DcCtEqK/Rj5y0ZXsBE2/0KXWGRmFB01av0lMQshYdhtfhXbWqHYqETS9v+ rghLATxiO0BArXcZ7lTZUf8tct8NRbJkajKPc7H6s2UGBgvwzDCBF3xuYshWl++G6L8KG8 H0ietFUllCBesVopI2eLfIURdCvfFAlOUD7RdCY7hEVox9maiCIioko50WbBLr60/hAdYf 0D3q/50gNFJALOcg7ThN2txHsTI696wbeOQUWH2Xw50ja+vqxU0WdmnYgd+h9g== ARC-Seal: i=1; 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spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 956762B7AA X-Spam-Score: 5.56 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: ueXuJ8Jvn5Vw --0000000000006ca1c305e3f2333d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, My concern is that what is written in the manual for bootloader-config and invoking-guix-system does not clearly communicate what needs to be done for those who have no exposure to either Guix or Scheme. I did actually view those entries at first, but it seemed theoretical at first glance and I kept moving because I was looking for an expected binary. To expand on this, Guix installs GRUB. This is undeniable, and this is where the problem begins.. over many years users are accustomed to GRUB working in a certain way with specific tools.. when they encounter a grub installation without grub-mkconfig, etc. they are at a loss, because it's a binary they expected to find and it's just not present. I think an argument could be made here that this behaviour breaks user space because it's established software, but changed to function differently as opposed to being something entirely new. It's like wearing your shoes on the opposite foot. You can do it, but it feels wrong. The way Debian and other distros manage Grub is via mkconfig, and the boot menu presented is very similar to Guix's, the only difference is that there's an extra row entry in the grub menu for the Windows bootloader to be launched. Personally, I dislike Grub because I feel it complicates things. I would love to use only UEFI and use only the bios boot menu to switch, but for whatever reason in a single internal drive system, this isn't easily done. Giving an example, awhile back, I tried installing a distro to an external usb drive.. it worked.. but the problem is that it installed grub to the internal drive.. and if you removed the usb drive from the pc, things would break because now a device it was expecting to see wasn't there. A workaround suggested was to disconnect the internal drive, do the setup, this way Grub would be on the external drive, then reconnect the internal drive and then I guess use the bios uefi menu to switch between, a lot of bother for a tightly sealed unit. The way MS's bootloader works is nice because one of the menu options it has is to pick a physical device so you can actually boot from a valid bootable USB flash drive device and it launches that device directly. Maybe the solution is just to create an EFI partition at the front of all drives including external as Apple does and then it doesn't matter what bootloader you use or do not use, because you could always just use the UEFI menu to point to a device. Not using a bootloader would reduce complexity of maintenance.. if MS's bootloader is there, people can use it if they want to point to the device, and if it is not there, then they can use the uefi bios menu. In theory. MBR folks would still need to continue using a bootloader of course. Best, Peter On Sat, Jul 16, 2022 at 6:32 AM Julien Lepiller wrote: > If anything, you also need to chainload to boot on haiku, which is free > software. So no reason not to implement it. > > Le 16 juillet 2022 11:59:29 GMT+02:00, Josselin Poiret > a =C3=A9crit : >> >> Hello both of you, >> >> Julien Lepiller writes: >> >>> Of course this is only a workaround I'm proposing, we should fix the in= staller to detect other OSs. >>> >> Just adding that we don't have any Guix bootloader entry field to >> chainload into another bootloader, needed for some non-free system :) >> this would need to be added as well. >> >> I personally don't mind, and use my UEFI boot menu instead if I want to >> boot into said non-free OS. >> >> Best, >> -- >> Josselin Poiret >> >> --0000000000006ca1c305e3f2333d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

My concern is that what = is written in the manual for bootloader-config and invoking-guix-system doe= s not clearly communicate what needs to be done for those who have no expos= ure to either Guix or Scheme. I did actually view those entries at first, b= ut it seemed theoretical at first glance and I kept moving because I was lo= oking for an expected binary.

To expand on this, Guix in= stalls GRUB. This is undeniable, and this is where the problem begins.. ove= r many years users are accustomed to GRUB working in a certain way with spe= cific tools.. when they encounter a grub installation without grub-mkconfig= , etc. they are at a loss, because it's a binary they expected to find = and it's just not present. I think an argument could be made here that = this behaviour breaks user space because it's established software, but= changed to function differently as opposed to being something entirely new= . It's like wearing your shoes on the opposite foot. You can do it, but= it feels wrong.

The way Debian and other distros manage = Grub is via mkconfig, and the boot menu presented is very similar to Guix&#= 39;s, the only difference is that there's an extra row entry in the gru= b menu for the Windows bootloader to be launched.

<= div>Personally, I dislike Grub because I feel it complicates things. I woul= d love to use only UEFI and use only the bios boot menu to switch, but for = whatever reason in a single internal drive system, this isn't easily do= ne. Giving an example, awhile back, I tried installing a distro to an exter= nal usb drive.. it worked.. but the problem is that it installed grub to th= e internal drive.. and if you removed the usb drive from the pc, things wou= ld break because now a device it was expecting to see wasn't there. A w= orkaround suggested was to disconnect the internal drive, do the setup, thi= s way Grub would be on the external drive, then reconnect the internal driv= e and then I guess use the bios uefi menu to switch between, a lot of bothe= r for a tightly sealed unit.

The way MS's bootloader= works is nice because one of the menu options it has is to pick a physical= device so you can actually boot from a valid bootable USB flash drive devi= ce and it launches that device directly.

Maybe the soluti= on is just to create an EFI partition at the front of all drives including = external as Apple does and then it doesn't matter what bootloader you u= se or do not use, because you could always just use the UEFI menu to point = to a device. Not using a bootloader would reduce complexity of maintenance.= . if MS's bootloader is there, people can use it if they want to point = to the device, and if it is not there, then they can use the uefi bios menu= . In theory.

MBR folks would still need to continue using= a bootloader of course.

Best,
Peter=


On Sat, Jul 16, 2022 at 6:32 AM Julien Lepiller &l= t;julien@lepiller.eu> wrote:
If anything,= you also need to chainload to boot on haiku, which is free software. So no= reason not to implement it.

Le 16 juille= t 2022 11:59:29 GMT+02:00, Josselin Poiret <dev@jpoiret.xyz> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: 
Hello both of you,

Julien Lepiller <julien@lepiller.eu> wri=
tes:
Of course this is=
 only a workaround I'm proposing, we should fix the installer to detect=
 other OSs.
Just adding that we don't have any Guix boo=
tloader entry field to
chainload into another bootloader, needed for som=
e non-free system :)
this would need to be added as well.

I perso=
nally don't mind, and use my UEFI boot menu instead if I want to
boo=
t into said non-free OS.

Best,
-- 
Josselin Poiret
--0000000000006ca1c305e3f2333d--