* bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers
2019-05-26 10:37 bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers juh
@ 2019-05-26 17:23 ` Timothy Sample
2019-05-26 20:01 ` Danny Milosavljevic
` (3 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Timothy Sample @ 2019-05-26 17:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: juh; +Cc: 35915-done
Hi juh,
I’m closing this bug, because I’m certain it’s not something the *GNU*
Guix project is willing to consider. As long as Guix is a GNU project,
any capitulation to the world of non-free software or locked-down
hardware is not an option.
That being said, I can appreciate the time you took to write this, so
I’ve provided some comments below.
juh <juh+bug-guix@mailbox.org> writes:
> Dear developers of Guix,
>
> I am very much in favour of Open Hardware and Free Software, and I
> appreciate every effort to foster free software. That in advance.
>
> Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that
> supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package
> management and declarative system configuration. This is really
> exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software,
> there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix
> I think it is missing.
I agree that Guix has a lot to offer! :)
> Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is
> a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported
> hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and
> compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer
> shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from
> others – as a gift maybe. They all have to stick with their hardware and
> they should not be excluded from the exciting Guix approach.
You make some good points here, but remember that it is not you or me or
the Guix project that is manufacturing incompatible hardware. Why
should it be our job to accommodate it? All of these problems would
disappear quickly if the current culture of secrecy and protectionism
among hardware manufacturers relaxed a little bit. Distributing a
non-free version of Guix would amount to deciding that the
wrong-headedness of the computer hardware industry is more important
than the freedom of users, which is a rather uncomfortable choice to
make. :/
> I think that many of them would give Guix a try if it was installable in
> a way like debian is installable with their firmware driver iso:
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
>
>
> I see that it is possible to make a custom kernel for Guix:
> For eg. https://gist.github.com/TeMPOraL/306bbb7c627ab0d32fa84af831963563
>
> It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with
> nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note
> on the webpage.
It may be convenient for someone to distribute a non-free version of
Guix, but that someone isn’t going to be the GNU Guix project. It is
our job to be the hardliners, ensuring that the whole distribution gives
users the four freedoms. I read something (but can’t seem to find it
now) from Chris Webber saying that it is much easier to remove freedom
from a free system than it is to make a non-free system free.
Essentially, anyone who wants to make such a non-free installer is free
to do so, and would probably find such a task pretty easy (in my
experience Guix is rather well designed and quite flexible). The GNU
Guix project, however, would not support it or recommend using it.
For a recent take on a similar issue from the GNU website, see
<https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/install-fest-devil>.
-- Tim
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers
2019-05-26 10:37 bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers juh
2019-05-26 17:23 ` Timothy Sample
@ 2019-05-26 20:01 ` Danny Milosavljevic
2019-05-26 22:05 ` Ricardo Wurmus
` (2 subsequent siblings)
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Danny Milosavljevic @ 2019-05-26 20:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: juh; +Cc: 35915
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Hi,
On Sun, 26 May 2019 12:37:18 +0200
juh <juh+bug-guix@mailbox.org> wrote:
>If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software,
> there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix
> I think it is missing [and necessary].
Yeah, that's a common argument in the Open Source source camp.
But building something worth using doesn't mean we have to compromise our
values--quite the opposite.
> Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is
> a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported
> hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and
> compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer
> shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from
> others – as a gift maybe.
I started my career the latter way myself, so I understand what you mean.
But there are other distributions--and you are free to use a non-gnu Linux
distribution with your non-free hardware. You are also free to configure
our distribution so that it works with your non-free hardware--but we will
not help you with that part (because it would be like the pope giving
advice on how to evade commandments--that's just not a good idea).
I would hate the idea of hardware going into a landfill because of this.
BUT closed firmware, especially closed communications (Wifi, LAN) and
closed display and input drivers are a *security problem*, especially
when using a monolithic kernel.
With USB existing and USB devices being pretty cheap, there is no need
to support weird peripherals when you can just stick a Free USB Wifi
stick, hard drive or even graphics card in your non-free computer instead
(If possible, we should at least detect unsupported hardware and warn about
it in Guix--that would be nice)
Also, the situation on x86 is good--there are hardware devices in every
category that work just fine with Free software.
I think tech is the hegemony tool of the millenium. See what the
USA is doing to Huawei now. Want to be in that situation in the NEAR
future where you can't get security updates on hardware you own because
some weird foreign government says the vendors are forbidden by law to
do it? That doesn't seem to be a good dependency to enter into as a
user. We thought vendor lock-in was bad but that's nothing against
these state-level threats. (in this case, it works because the Android
updates are handled by Google even for Huawei, and Google is bound
by USA law; there are a lot of other worse things closed hardware
and/or software vendors can and *will* do)
Now is the time to seperate from these machinations entirely--and hardware
that at least has Free drivers that can be improved by ANYONE is a pretty
low bar to reach to improve the situation for humanity. In the long run,
we should strive for Free hardware that has the schematics, including the
processor design source code, available for anyone to use or modify as
he sees fit (this, including the processor, is under way right now).
If there are free alternatives, we should steer people to those alternatives.
> It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with
> nonfree drivers.
We don't stop anyone from making one. I am a strong believer in freedom 0:
To be allowed to run the program as you wish, for ANY purpose.
So do it if you think it's useful. When you distribute the result you
have to be careful to heed the applicable licenses, though. Funnily
enough the GNU General Public License is a lot less draconian than most
of the licenses you'll have on the closed source firmwares.
GNU is a political movement and the goals are political: To give people
control over their computing. When you use non-free hardware you
don't have control over your computing. If we helped you do it, what
would that make us?
>If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note on the webpage.
We can't do that.
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers
2019-05-26 10:37 bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers juh
2019-05-26 17:23 ` Timothy Sample
2019-05-26 20:01 ` Danny Milosavljevic
@ 2019-05-26 22:05 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2019-05-27 0:50 ` Leo Famulari
2019-05-27 7:09 ` Meiyo Peng
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Ricardo Wurmus @ 2019-05-26 22:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: juh; +Cc: 35915-done
Hi juh,
> It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with
> nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note
> on the webpage.
The Guix project will not distribute or recommend non-free software, as
it abides by the Free System Distribution Guidelines:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html
If such an inofficial installer image existed (which can easily be built
with Guix just like the official image is generated) it would thus not
be hosted or advertised on the project web site.
--
Ricardo
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers
2019-05-26 10:37 bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers juh
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2019-05-26 22:05 ` Ricardo Wurmus
@ 2019-05-27 0:50 ` Leo Famulari
2019-05-27 7:09 ` Meiyo Peng
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Leo Famulari @ 2019-05-27 0:50 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: juh; +Cc: 35915
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On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 12:37:18PM +0200, juh wrote:
> Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that
> supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package
> management and declarative system configuration. This is really
> exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software,
> there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix
> I think it is missing.
Personally I agree with you. Guix is a great advance in technology and
in some ways the project holds itself back by not shipping with support
for most WiFi chips. Wireless networking is a crucial technology in
2019 and the standards of usability or user friendliness of technology
have never been higher.
> Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is
> a privilege.
I agree with this too and frankly it can't be understated. Being picky
about which computer to use costs some money and, even more important for
many of us, time.
However, as others have said, Guix is a GNU project, so there is no
option for GNU Guix to distribute an installer with non-free drivers.
We appreciate your thoughtful email and I hope you will stick around and
join our community :)
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread* bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers
2019-05-26 10:37 bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers juh
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2019-05-27 0:50 ` Leo Famulari
@ 2019-05-27 7:09 ` Meiyo Peng
4 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread
From: Meiyo Peng @ 2019-05-27 7:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 35915
Hi juh,
juh writes:
> I am very much in favour of Open Hardware and Free Software, and I
> appreciate every effort to foster free software. That in advance.
>
> Guix is not just another Linux distribution, but something new that
> supports transactional upgrades and roll-backs, unprivileged package
> management and declarative system configuration. This is really
> exciting. If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software,
> there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix
> I think it is missing.
>
> Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is
> a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported
> hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and
> compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer
> shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from
> others – as a gift maybe. They all have to stick with their hardware and
> they should not be excluded from the exciting Guix approach.
>
> I think that many of them would give Guix a try if it was installable in
> a way like debian is installable with their firmware driver iso:
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
>
>
> I see that it is possible to make a custom kernel for Guix:
> For eg. https://gist.github.com/TeMPOraL/306bbb7c627ab0d32fa84af831963563
>
> It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with
> nonfree drivers. If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note
> on the webpage.
Just a friendly reminder. Although many computers contain non-free
hardware, most of them can run the official Guix installer without a
problem.
Most of the time, an unrecognized network card is the only road blocker.
If so, the easiest trick is to connect an Android phone to your computer
via USB cable and enable "USB tethering" in Settings ("Network &
internet" -> "Hotspot & tethering" -> "USB tethering"). Then your phone
will work like a network card and you can proceed the installation
process as usual. After that, you can customize your system however you
want. For example, use a customized kernel. (You are free to do that,
but we won't help you.)
--
Meiyo Peng
https://www.pengmeiyu.com/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread