From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Arne Babenhauserheide Subject: bug#38360: Retroarch does violate FSDG Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:06:44 +0100 Message-ID: <87d0dc2u2z.fsf@web.de> References: <87d0df7wpv.fsf@gnu.org> <877e3lkpv9.fsf@web.de> <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47839) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iaGiX-0006Iy-Ez for bug-guix@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 05:08:10 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iaGiS-0007TF-Pf for bug-guix@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 05:08:07 -0500 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:50699) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iaGiS-0007RI-79 for bug-guix@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 05:08:04 -0500 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1iaGiQ-0000YD-2S for bug-guix@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2019 05:08:02 -0500 Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-Message-ID: In-reply-to: <874kyoamwd.fsf@nckx> List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+gcggb-bug-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "bug-Guix" To: Tobias Geerinckx-Rice Cc: 38360@debbugs.gnu.org --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tobias Geerinckx-Rice via Bug reports for GNU Guix write= s: > Guix, > > This is not about Schr=C3=B6dinger's proprietary-until-proven-innocent > binary. The Updater includes at least two cores explicitly marked as > non-free in Debian: > > libretro-genesisplusgx > libretro-snes9x In non-free because they are non-commercial, not because they treacherous to users. This is a distinction the FSF used to make until 2010 but dropped since the= n: https://web.archive.org/web/20100126044451/http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/ca= tegories.html#semi-freeSoftware > Disabling the Updater seems like an open & shut case to me. > > This is a shame, because I think these non-commercial clauses are > silly and legally void. Core authors can't place arbitrary > restrictions on derivative works of a GPL3 project. Unfortunately, > that obvious fact is for a court to point out, and until then we must > act as if it makes any sense. Retroarch is not a derivative work of the cores. There is an API-layer between both. This is similar to a PDF which can place restrictions on what I can do with a PDF-viewer *while viewing that PDF*. For example I=E2=80=99m not all= owed to charge money for displaying a PDF for which I don=E2=80=99t have commerc= ial use rights. (since PDFs can have Javascript embedded, this even applies when we have a strict discussion about programs) > Arne, to address your last point first: > > Arne Babenhauserheide =E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A >> It is also not advertised (I just tried) but simply one in a long >> list of possible cores. A very long list. And you have to actively do >> the online-lookup. > > For the purpose of this (FSDG) discussion, that's exactly what > =E2=80=98advertised=E2=80=99 means. > > I install Retroarch with Guix. When I run Retroarch, it prods me to > (literally) =E2=80=98use the Updater if available=E2=80=99. When I do th= at, I can > select from many cores, at least two of them non-free. > There is no way for me to know this important fact; I have to type the > name of the core into a search engine and dig, possibly deep (not > everyone knows the awesome power of a Debian copyright file :-). Look at what happens when you have at least one core installed: It shows you the core with a line for the license (but that says N/A for snes9x, which is likely a bug). If we pre-install free cores, then these are what will be shown first. And different from browser-add-ons, they are not run until you start them =E2=80=94 before which you see the license (barring the N/A bug). > You're not required to agree with any of the above, but Guix must. If the license-info line is fixed, then not: You are then clearly informed of the license *before* you run the core. >> We=E2=80=99re not restricting software which displays non-free online co= mics >> either. > > Indeed, that would be against our stated goal of user freedom. > > Comics aren't software so don't count I disagree, but that=E2=80=99s a personal opinion which is not mainstream i= n GNU. >> Aren=E2=80=99t we overblocking here? This is not a case of a program >> restricted >> to push someone into proprietary software, but a case of a program >> restricted to not-for-profit for everybody. > > It's just as bad for the same reason. It is not *just as* bad. If I can choose between a closed-source-likely-spies-on-you-and-you-cannot-do-anything-about-it tool and a you-can-see-and-fix-everything-but-noone-can-earn-money-with-it tool, the latter is clearly better. Not sufficiently good for inclusion in a free distribution, but in my opinion also not bad enough to censor from lists. > That violates a fundamental software freedom (#0: the freedom to run > the software as you wish, for any purpose). > > Contrast this with the GPL, which places zero restrictions on use =E2=80= =94 I > don't even have to share the software or my improvements with anyone! This is not true for the AGPL, because that places the restriction that you have to provide the source you=E2=80=99re running. That=E2=80=99s a restriction I like, because it prevents circumvention of t= he GPL, but it is a restriction. The non-commercial clause for emulators was added because otherwise they would have been struck down. >> It is a similar case as allowing to ship GPLv3 software in a ROM >> without >> the option to modify it, as long as no one is able to modify it on >> that >> medium, including the propagator. > > I don't see any similarities. With any GPL3 software, I am always > allowed to copy the software and do with it what I want, no matter the > underlying storage at some point in time. In that case you cannot in practice do with it what you want, because you cannot run a modified version on your device. The important distinction is, that the creator cannot do so either. And this is the symmetry which is also preserved with the non-commercial cores. I=E2=80=99m not arguing to include snes9x in Guix, just that this isn=E2=80= =99t a case where redaction of information is needed =E2=80=94 if we package the free c= ores. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl3fnDYACgkQE++NRSQD w+t6ZQ//Z+usI3AyMBrCzo4siAR5tNe1r0VNVHkVeZoUwBFft3K5uprYNAjXT9uc Fo5oIBziDdupWq9CdY1ABcKDHtbckr9a5KrIUk6U/K0ld/MhGphQKk44HDf5uNYa oN5t66uIJ4tGyhUFMI3ENC7vJ1g1LRUru8CSH6EzY2AHDZjnkVgHgOrPpgkvxMdh 5loC7URVz9/ZdNEIUWeVuHPe9bKKTmlT4lTIib9VYx6htXhNt5UlQWxTOK9wY7J3 Q99Kga0d8dBlQNp8b5ErcATUeyJCAXztkM6BlU7yU8iDX3+TV5uRgNZ1APb2jON4 X+EdSQiid+7qol15MS+QXoslxxuodhuCPRD7wpgOJd4n/29uP8Dr3ebp6X4XM51q sFsAZevx5tSzgGZ5by+kCjDZOw83pBKk9gJaKIsH+E9lH7cDJlC5WEEdrB7NCL08 g9liuubyZnGCW6DBaiTUc4rSsWb80kmwS2p1UxxR4iaM0eV6XTfhEfscNtg63jU0 3WEubApqGY6X4xXtESeLKk8rZ03PeRCW3bZmpULrADqEcQ4wJZxENX7JSKxNeHgS 02QTKTCN0nj8lgLNrFqryjno6Y2RW1e4Vyf+bUzQpVGUQLy0X/kdnueNJB5VBOtt nKa5ibA2Opw/Pz/wPfAYpN+27pQEVVDmhjqSs/uXyd5GBitiO0KIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd35w3AAoJENzPDbMLwQVIN98D/1m4tr8y r5NjG27uayzjMU6WHI+98e+hbAPsG3HBnTeeyaSwO9nhTicwmoTJD0/zS7hO+2t+ oRPN45wqFuYlwIU/Ploi+QRVPKziaEwL+lBZBCudISZR6DJppi9KSIN4SZLCKnyS TbkOYR4CYbAkUk/KeRWYgpHkM5c0ipJBhxja =sjyx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--