From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Danny Milosavljevic Subject: bug#35915: Please provide an installer with non-free drivers Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 22:01:04 +0200 Message-ID: <20190526220104.1aba1273@scratchpost.org> References: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; boundary="Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G"; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46719) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUzLI-0005tK-Vx for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 16:02:08 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUzLF-0008HD-Ss for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 16:02:04 -0400 Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:38298) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hUzLF-0008H7-Qe for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 16:02:01 -0400 Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hUzLF-0003EM-ND for bug-guix@gnu.org; Sun, 26 May 2019 16:02:01 -0400 Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <18075d76-d9b5-05d6-e21e-28b6afed4a88@mailbox.org> List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+gcggb-bug-guix=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "bug-Guix" To: juh Cc: 35915@debbugs.gnu.org --Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Sun, 26 May 2019 12:37:18 +0200 juh wrote: >If Guix were just another distro focusing on free software, > there would be no need for a nonfree installer iso. But in case of Guix > I think it is missing [and necessary]. Yeah, that's a common argument in the Open Source source camp. But building something worth using doesn't mean we have to compromise our values--quite the opposite. > Please consider that using hardware that is supported by free drivers is > a privilege. Many people cannot afford a computer with supported > hardware, others are not able to look for the right components, and > compare long lists of supported hardware with the specs from computer > shops, and last but not least many people just got a computer from > others =E2=80=93 as a gift maybe.=20 I started my career the latter way myself, so I understand what you mean. But there are other distributions--and you are free to use a non-gnu Linux distribution with your non-free hardware. You are also free to configure our distribution so that it works with your non-free hardware--but we will not help you with that part (because it would be like the pope giving advice on how to evade commandments--that's just not a good idea). I would hate the idea of hardware going into a landfill because of this. BUT closed firmware, especially closed communications (Wifi, LAN) and closed display and input drivers are a *security problem*, especially when using a monolithic kernel. With USB existing and USB devices being pretty cheap, there is no need to support weird peripherals when you can just stick a Free USB Wifi stick, hard drive or even graphics card in your non-free computer instead (If possible, we should at least detect unsupported hardware and warn about it in Guix--that would be nice) Also, the situation on x86 is good--there are hardware devices in every category that work just fine with Free software. I think tech is the hegemony tool of the millenium. See what the USA is doing to Huawei now. Want to be in that situation in the NEAR future where you can't get security updates on hardware you own because some weird foreign government says the vendors are forbidden by law to do it? That doesn't seem to be a good dependency to enter into as a user. We thought vendor lock-in was bad but that's nothing against these state-level threats. (in this case, it works because the Android updates are handled by Google even for Huawei, and Google is bound by USA law; there are a lot of other worse things closed hardware and/or software vendors can and *will* do) Now is the time to seperate from these machinations entirely--and hardware that at least has Free drivers that can be improved by ANYONE is a pretty low bar to reach to improve the situation for humanity. In the long run, we should strive for Free hardware that has the schematics, including the processor design source code, available for anyone to use or modify as he sees fit (this, including the processor, is under way right now). If there are free alternatives, we should steer people to those alternative= s. > It would be really nice to have at least an unofficial installer with > nonfree drivers. We don't stop anyone from making one. I am a strong believer in freedom 0: To be allowed to run the program as you wish, for ANY purpose. So do it if you think it's useful. When you distribute the result you have to be careful to heed the applicable licenses, though. Funnily enough the GNU General Public License is a lot less draconian than most of the licenses you'll have on the closed source firmwares. GNU is a political movement and the goals are political: To give people control over their computing. When you use non-free hardware you don't have control over your computing. If we helped you do it, what would that make us? >If there is a nonfree installer iso please make a note on the webpage. We can't do that. --Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEds7GsXJ0tGXALbPZ5xo1VCwwuqUFAlzq8IAACgkQ5xo1VCww uqUjqwf7BXYG9QYmtTFscpLVqhQpTr6tL7Oa5K8mp7Y8BVGzeMpB53naWYnR0KnM HTyx/Kip4K6AjnGTSA9iVzF9Cn08w5NRjwJaEp74m6gHRug+CreC7uXTKFZUAxCK xmeWaZ/nnHJI1yb6oYRUZ6iCvTGsAX84WAwv8hOI4biWd+sYkp63egF9TvScvw1O L788WZD6xZB11SVnoCGzGDb+z+Ft6ovmXOdzpTL3EpOF08c43X8NrpCmgjXAaYfW AWAXO5FjlTCfUdMgy3SyQIRT3vNkdpV2xfZlfuLN2HmXYQmjFqCJ2ImWJqpguiNw ANSYsT6IPMrKHMBSrloqIx+m42+E1w== =VugW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_//Rk1GtLC.s2v6KT8FK4dU4G--