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[85.127.52.93]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u3-20020a17090657c300b0072b33e91f96sm7346789ejr.190.2022.07.19.21.31.24 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 19 Jul 2022 21:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19e0c1a0ba4b562a9824f87fba8ba16a320f389b.camel@gmail.com> From: Liliana Marie Prikler Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2022 06:31:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <66494e02-a96c-6557-4895-2d2ffcf48bc4@telenet.be> References: <3fc3794df2d837c16ce768594c3ea9086b5f0abf.camel@telenet.be> <9f39252821c630a8ba1064baa2b860f9e7a7a990.camel@gmail.com> <66494e02-a96c-6557-4895-2d2ffcf48bc4@telenet.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" User-Agent: Evolution 3.42.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-guix@gnu.org List-Id: Bug reports for GNU Guix List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org Sender: "bug-Guix" X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_IN X-Migadu-To: larch@yhetil.org X-Migadu-Country: US ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yhetil.org; s=key1; t=1658291538; h=from:from:sender:sender:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date: message-id:message-id:to:to:cc:mime-version:mime-version: content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding:resent-cc: resent-from:resent-sender:resent-message-id:in-reply-to:in-reply-to: references:references:list-id:list-help:list-unsubscribe: list-subscribe:list-post:dkim-signature; bh=0oaKn4qNQcI0o/nnxH795ogceI+o5KWzb8qVNreUWhE=; b=ZRNRPJnuxSS7lhpKoCR8g4q7HAyYL+NeK2MhyC0HJvBsZ13wGxelvhN5jandt7MCshoTv8 Bqv6buDkhKrFNI4W4yTWJWzYWLJinzo1ARGoXisxfRi1AjXigzeGD7bIRewWKXh/umZ5MY islzYrANeymybuT1cMMYmIyKPCtEN4Da0zdw8EDMxg0LzDBi7kXJ2hyK5KfWhcysNAQimu fh5kPLw0njl5p/vvjAWcpRLiII7EQOzUgofEt4PcQfjcgS59m6DmPuFL1YXO6OsfFLedy6 EkmJpgFyIzxrWeWtA4egqyCBExHsiKYKtCn+vx6RCpNp9fajO73o9nrNLEi8KQ== ARC-Seal: i=1; s=key1; d=yhetil.org; t=1658291538; a=rsa-sha256; cv=none; b=mfhbzIumjjRaymiS3mdF8mCR04Ws/wafMPQ7EF2wRaKKHc/T0Eg9OURKJt8tNQqgV0iWrm 2ZWwipCd4NyRGHYMh8pWMSaNB4e2NGQk/pF5urQTUucl2RP5rgVk4KB6/cdcao0CRKgaUH Ek+GieSY9F7obJ70IWZOBZhjWvYcZdAU/6eO5/JjerFd+F79IqR5wtm88q34Ftspw62Z6a auIKmEyggDMi1xc7SeHs0mMURCEmnOB+NyPnJx9kkSxq/W7YNKXMjKBPP5geXc421Ip8NR LVmz5Y9jyuvZCiwKDPo4V4V9Clsjwt3kbvYMqAD6Gu3uMasCgPPk0KtgUka7jA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=qWDWYqj6; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Spam-Score: 6.06 Authentication-Results: aspmx1.migadu.com; dkim=fail ("headers rsa verify failed") header.d=gmail.com header.s=20210112 header.b=qWDWYqj6; dmarc=fail reason="SPF not aligned (relaxed)" header.from=gmail.com (policy=none); spf=pass (aspmx1.migadu.com: domain of "bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" designates 209.51.188.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom="bug-guix-bounces+larch=yhetil.org@gnu.org" X-Migadu-Queue-Id: 6EC2033B4E X-Spam-Score: 6.06 X-Migadu-Scanner: scn0.migadu.com X-TUID: otS5nB7h1+vQ Am Dienstag, dem 19.07.2022 um 21:20 +0200 schrieb Maxime Devos: > On 03-04-2022 19:26, Liliana Marie Prikler wrote: > > > Am Sonntag, dem 03.04.2022 um 15:09 +0200 schrieb Maxime Devos: > > > > > Hi guix, > > > > > > fortune-mod currently propagates (in the non-technical sense) > > > various non-nice things like objectification, misoginy, religious > > > intolerance, anti-mathematician-ism (?) and date rape.  That is > > > not an exhaustive list, these are just the first few things I > > > encountered with "fortune off". > > Well, the purpose of "fortune off" is to provide offensive "jokes". > > As such, if you're offended by them, you're kinda getting what > > you've asked for. If removing them falls under what our CoC states, > > though, then so be it, I have no horse in this race. > My point wasn't that some individual could accidentally install a > package that offends them.  My point was that: > > fortune-mod currently propagates (in the non-technical sense) > > various non-nice things like objectification, misogeny, religious > > intolerance, anti-mathematician-ism (?) and date rape. That is not > > an exhaustive list, these are just the first few things I > > encountered with "fortune off". > More concretely, consider the target audience for such "jokes" > instead of some random individual. >  By including such jokes: >  * we implicitly validate that such views are reasonable (people > holding those views get validation, unknowing people are nudged into > considering such views and people rejecting these views are > invalidated) >  * As such, we contribute to keeping those vile -isms intact and > making them more common. > I do not believe this to be a good course of action. > Something can be said about the individuals too, w.r.t. internalised > $BAD-isms, negative impact on mental health, possibly some other > things too?). I don't believe inflicting those to be a good idea > either. I do get where you're coming from. However, I'd argue that the issue with the current fortune-mod is that it doesn't really have a code of conduct, or at best a poorly conceived one. Even if we removed obviously bad stuff like misogyny, religious intolerance and date rape, there are other points of contention. For example, the user one you mentioned was not even listed in off, even though it might be classified as offensive (a harmless offense, if you ask me, but anyway). All sorts of "punching up" jokes against incompetent politicians would also be offensive to those politicians and their followers even if propagating them towards greater society would be a good thing. There's probably more to add here. Thus, my point is that we ought to consider a code of conduct while we're choosing which themes fortune-mod is allowed to propagate and which not (in particular our own might be a starting point). If we find that patching fortune-mod is too hard as raingloom implied, we might instead use a more CoC-friendly fork. Cheers