From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Zelphir Kaltstahl Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Diversification [ branched from Re: conflicts in the gnu project now affect guile] Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:02:57 +0200 Message-ID: References: <-IsD5PBFie-kW2VJSYNHx00LodtSHflKNWtY2vjNVQDN126iTMsqHrdxl8zeWE8a53TzM_27wskjsrylIh4bN5jIGVNYOBC6zmE3p1RGyBg=@protonmail.com> <20191023064813.6igo2qi2cwtcz5bz@pelzflorian.localdomain> <20191023113724.bf055453852ec206af8d7bef@gmail.com> <20191023134326.GA11420@tuxteam.de> <20191023200211.ewmkz4cklmev4zgy@pelzflorian.localdomain> <20191026081422.GF15076@tuxteam.de> <20191026090312.ro4hdiatlowkwqgc@pelzflorian.localdomain> <20191026112621.GC22804@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="133790"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 To: guile-user@gnu.org, tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 26 15:03:45 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iOLjM-000YeJ-RB for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:03:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40038 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iOLjL-0006Id-9g for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:03:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41824) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iOLij-00065v-2E for guile-user@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:03:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iOLih-0004w0-FM for guile-user@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:03:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:47103) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iOLig-0004up-3d for guile-user@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:03:02 -0400 Original-Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B145B16005F for ; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:02:58 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.de; s=2017; t=1572094978; bh=ne6cOEm2ricPayPtieeT35ktVVRn07Avz3R50Qb7TBU=; h=Subject:To:From:Date:From; b=pgZv4P4hEHp23QQZ4FHo0O2JMsUMIyGY7VtHqYJt/3XXSFaMGwPAZ6MZEAlsxLe1e UQs3Nt30HVjDuGr20mq7bJ2UIj3QQjsVq0nfUNPoQOUaXkr1jba+aCji4avnUXh9MM /yj0D2+5qKuXVOHsnZE1kYr//fF5b61wsNHiUEogqCelHO++CPT5AcXorRs+0KMCiP vA1JcCu74ie9XCk+fnIIuJeiIUZhaDlqbaH/bVAZKqhjF/ziw/X9ILwT8F/OxwljQa fByfkF68i6t+SMln/loNtNO3OfQ+4rQqgLhsqvaqiYG3SG7rCg3BjkUfbZoDlvcM5M LgcQG0CtAZFpw== Original-Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 470h3j4V6jz6tmB; Sat, 26 Oct 2019 15:02:57 +0200 (CEST) In-Reply-To: <20191026112621.GC22804@tuxteam.de> Content-Language: en-US X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 185.67.36.65 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:15854 Archived-At: On 10/26/19 1:26 PM, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 11:03:12AM +0200, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) wr= ote: >> On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 10:14:22AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > [...] > >>> only become aware of that when you try to live at the rift. >> Yes, this is something we should keep in mind. IMHO the medium should >> remain a mailing list and this should be clear. Top posting is >> useless and undesirable with both e-mail and forums though, I believe. >> >> Since I use mutt too, I think plain text compatibility is important. > See? There lies the problem. I'm firmly in your "camp", and still I > learnt to realise that the other "cultures" do have as difficult a > time to adapt to "our" camp as the other way around. > > That's why I believe that we need serious thinking (beyond the "easy" > technical things) and lots of tolerance. > > To me, Wikipedia is a wonderful inspirational example for a web site > which succeds in bridging an astonishly broad swath of those "cultures" > (and still doesn't cover all of them, it has a distinct academic and > "liberal", in the broadest sense, "smell" to it). > >> As for the formatting, I think for plain text e-mail compatibility, >> when there are stars around a word, it should *not* be highlighted as >> italic. > Uh -- isn't the star reserved for *strong*? ;-) > > Cheers > -- tom=C3=A1s Hi! Well, I hope that such tolerance does not lead us to accept usage of mini-uglyfied proprietary JavaScript or other bad things, just to please people, who in the majority most likely =E2=80=A6 (1) =E2=80=A6 would never consider switching away from _their_ medium of = choice, because most people use it, so it must be right (2) =E2=80=A6 have never even thought about the consequences of their cho= ice of technology (examples here are the web engine monoculture threat and human interaction via Whatsapp and FB messenger, Skype) I just want to point that out. While I find it to be a good idea to be open to alternatives, I do not find it acceptable to not stay true to our principles as a community of free software developers. I also often see a very heavy imbalance between the amount of thought some people in the free software world have put into their choice of technology and the amount of thought the mainstream user has put into their choice (usually zero, besides an "Oh it works!" or "It does not cost me money!"). So we should not give up our principles, in order to win some people over, because then we are actually the ones "won over" (or lost) to the proprietary non-free world. It would not be a diversification, but a disintegration of our community. That said, I am open to trying out any community communication technology, that follows the principles of free software and is run in an ethically acceptable way. I am highly skeptical of discourse, because: * https://www.discourse.org/ tries to load Google Analytics and fontawesome, 2 tools to spy on users. They already do not seem to care about privacy. * It is very JavaScript heavy. * In my experience slow and sluggish. * WYSIWYG-Editor =E2=80=93 These tend to not produce plain text well read= able documents. Just give me some simple editor, Markdown maybe, not mandatory= . That is, why I like the idea of having a good old (newly written in Guile) forum software. I would like and welcome such a forum software, because some of my best memories of community interaction happened in such a good old forum with a great community. It is also a great structured long term memory. Whether the "other cultures" would use it is on a different sheet of paper. One more thing we should very much look out for, when choosing some technology or when making our own software is: * Can we actually get all our content out of that software if needed? Can we export it to some JSON or other useful format? Otherwise we will lock ourselves in. Best regards, Zelphir