From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thien-Thi Nguyen Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: language translator help Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:23:14 -0700 Sender: guile-user-admin@gnu.org Message-ID: References: <15561.38014.967466.255795@segfault.bogus.domain> <15563.18078.788420.299836@segfault.bogus.domain> <87ofg4zkhp.fsf@becket.becket.net> <87d6vxp265.fsf@zagadka.ping.de> <87znyzhi1p.fsf@zagadka.ping.de> <87it5g73zz.fsf@zagadka.ping.de> <87r8k3uct0.fsf@zagadka.ping.de> Reply-To: ttn@glug.org NNTP-Posting-Host: localhost.gmane.org X-Trace: main.gmane.org 1022106644 22449 127.0.0.1 (22 May 2002 22:30:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@main.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 22:30:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: guile-user@gnu.org Return-path: Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([199.232.76.164]) by main.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.33 #1 (Debian)) id 17Aed1-0005py-00 for ; Thu, 23 May 2002 00:30:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 17AecV-0007lH-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:30:11 -0400 Original-Received: from ca-crlsbd-u5-c4a-a-172.crlsca.adelphia.net ([24.48.214.172] helo=giblet) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 3.34 #1 (Debian)) id 17AeZg-0007J2-00 for ; Wed, 22 May 2002 18:27:16 -0400 Original-Received: from ttn by giblet with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17AeVm-0003J0-00; Wed, 22 May 2002 15:23:14 -0700 Original-To: mvo@zagadka.ping.de In-Reply-To: <87r8k3uct0.fsf@zagadka.ping.de> (message from Marius Vollmer on 22 May 2002 22:50:51 +0200) Errors-To: guile-user-admin@gnu.org X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.9 Precedence: bulk List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:482 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.guile.user:482 From: Marius Vollmer Date: 22 May 2002 22:50:51 +0200 There is nothing veiled about it, I hope. From my point of view, you are behaving in a dangerous way, dangerous to the Guile project. I'm not categorically saying that you are wrong, but you are side-stepping the maintainer too bluntly. ummm, i'm a maintainer as are all the people w/ write privs. the only difference between a maintainer and a user is those write privs. you additionally have administrative duties (tending the mailing list, etc), that you seem to be carrying out quite capably. these privs imply certain responsibilities. when you say "little community", you are basically avoiding the responsibilities to the larger community, the users. perhaps you don't know how to be properly responsible; it's up to you to recognize the extent of that and take steps to widen your viewpoint. "i think not" is inadequate, sorry. While you may be good at identifying problems, you are bad at actually encouraging people to do better. What you do looks to me mostly like standing on the side, accusing people of 'obvious' stupidities and pumping out philosophical dribble when asked to provide concreteness. This is not a good way to encourage volunteers. again, "on the side" is not quite correct; you (and all maintainers) are already standing in the middle of a crowd. the more you cannot see this the more you react against when one those crowd members (who might also have the accidental property of having write privs) shouts loud enough to penetrate your meditations. what is the right way to encourage volunteers? is it right to encourage the mindset that volunteers must be in some little clique and not listen to users? is it right to ask for concreteness and yet not see it? is it right to not even provide concreteness yourself? I can't seem to cut thru to the meat of most of your comments. I don't think I ignore users like you say. I don't think you have a better grasp of good design than I do. That can very well be a problem of mine, and not of yours. If your message would be really serious I would expect you to try to present it so that I can understand it better. Others would surely see the denseness of mine and support you. This does not seem to happen, or maybe I'm blind to that as well. sometimes it's difficult to see if you aren't motivated to look around. do you think these mailing lists are the only place you are permitted to look at? be careful of logical fallacy: (smoke -> fire) does not mean (no smoke -> no fire). The gist is that we two don't seem to communicate effectively, and don't trust each other. That is bad and hopefully we can _both_ get over it. I have to rely on the judgment of others who is right in our little dispute. So, if anyone is listening, please enlighten me. when i want to find trust in someone, i look at their actions, and don't put much weight in their words only. in this case, i can trust you to break interfaces w/o consideration for people and programs using those interfaces (and then maintaining unproductive us-vs-them attitude in the ensuing outcry (should you choose to inform people), and then turning a blind eye on your own practice so that the next time this happens the outcry is muted and you can declare self-righteous victory -- just look at this thread). this is exactly the same way i trust usloth, btw. it's a proprietary mindset that really goes against the spirit of the GNU project (as well as generally accepted principles of good software design and delivery). Your medicine does not seem to do me any good, thi. obviously. everyone is their own doctor. what is your medicine? Please believe me, my main interest is not to stay maintainer of Guile. But at the moment, I have that position and I really believe that in the best interests of the Guile project I can't allow it that you play your own game. You can't just decide that you continue with a 1.4.x series and implement all your favorite things in it without consensus from the rest of the developers. your premise is wrong (see below). At least, that is how I interpret your plan. You did nothing to convince otherwise as of yet. can you define "compatibility"? answering that helps you to understand and classify different changes as compatible or incompatible (or some mixture). from this understanding you can convince yourself. But note also that "your favorite things" might actually be good and valuable stuff for Guile. I'm not saying that they are not. What I would like you to do, is to convince me that you are a constructive member of our little community, rather than a destructive one. For that, please agree not to work on a 1.4.x release series without my approval (which I will give based on user and developer feedback), and to subscribe to guile-devel until we have agreed that guile-devel is counterproductive and should be closed completely. what i would like you to do, is to write down under $workbook what you consider "our little community" so that it can be logically refuted. please understand that i don't consider your approval very worthwhile in the scheme of things, but that may change depending on what you do. You might think that I act way beyond my competencies here, and that I'm abusing that little extra power that I have. That might be the case, but we two are not the ones to decide this. dude, it's my opinion that you are frantically grasping at straws in a very uncool way. perhaps you're stressed over something. why not relax w/ a cool beverage somewhere hot (or vice versa) and write down your "guile developer guidelines" so that you can interview the next person you want to extend write privs. be sure to include "must obey the Commander's orders", "must not question authority", and the like. there is a "rules of the evil overlord" series on the net that might provide a good template. or, you can strike out in a predictably juvenile way and raise your blood pressure. hopefully your medication compensates for that somehow. thi _______________________________________________ Guile-user mailing list Guile-user@gnu.org http://mail.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/guile-user