From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Nala Ginrut Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: How to make GNU Guile more successful Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 21:35:33 +0800 Message-ID: References: <2e4e293e-618e-809a-2eff-31576319ea61@gmx.de> <874lzod28a.fsf@web.de> <6deb1610-e31b-b5c2-e9c9-95a2289af216@gmx.de> <87mvdfs6mh.fsf@web.de> <871sued8h7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87shmubli4.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1488548203 11594 195.159.176.226 (3 Mar 2017 13:36:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:36:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Guile User To: David Kastrup Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 03 14:36:37 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cjnNr-0002M4-Pn for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:36:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58115 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cjnNx-0006xg-Nw for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:36:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60634) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cjnMy-0006ZL-Kk for guile-user@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:35:41 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cjnMu-0000D9-Fn for guile-user@gnu.org; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:35:40 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-oi0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234]:33418) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cjnMs-0000Bi-Ud; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:35:35 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-oi0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 2so55429804oif.0; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 05:35:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AmTp2D359cv8VcOISTMzOmYYA65ibRay1/ptsB0oxTY=; b=jLfrjOzXsp2M9ci7B1Kpkgmd19m+IEiHuXcAd9WBLW9muAujb4rSicTocZyccMB/T/ F/gXYXQasaAOnTw34Ojh4ayJRPY8lNjCThxd7Guy6TJh/ClPlqHuDBDUg/YGd0fCwJx0 Ox5Y0eu5LVaFlNfO/9yehOZEBsq+KXjDAXZwTfnGWO2N5dEqsJqIxTxe0/jcpsp7gnvr ORta32ioSqH9BXuWGHHpFfTgVUxGGoPV8dpUp4B0Qgq+ZZhExOK8i87ByAaUjO0b/dl8 QcnsQgOqWUiXbym1EZfKd9/8aW4CkE9d12KxqxpEXiAhJr0jUIM0oTcUs8Z2B2S3CLfI 235Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AmTp2D359cv8VcOISTMzOmYYA65ibRay1/ptsB0oxTY=; b=WcjuKXQyW2hlXmdgNnsHyeu7qIjm3fLOUUrDo63e6cIvKQoQuEAsxFfuh2GWpRVNxz wdE1pYq0CaqlGCKXSn4HjG3fwjWGIUo2m5zWQSE+UDUhUrmHONGcP7NEuFpzhauECNyv SufBIQs6KOOnGdOkjOFdqnnH7UuFbHKbw/6YRF2nWTSYhBHlNtJ1SSsKeQ6bCabt/sn0 l6vlJmPUjvF4+nrIvAoNipBdmOo3d29YATbm2o/mU+aFDlqjoyw4T8C2NHV7A2tyDVRR s7MH2V/p2BzuZCng4wcL+CeddlcbkYJ7d70maEhDKrzJcQhPosjYMemE7X9wEXpoZ/Ld xvCg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kSLJNVFE2kK7QaIkiuwVM21bUFkwaIopOX/2jCsO1XwGGsy+0I/AC1xrxoP+D9Ced6rYnYgKUXMi8wkQ== X-Received: by 10.202.207.134 with SMTP id f128mr1442932oig.55.1488548133894; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 05:35:33 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.157.3.182 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:35:33 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87shmubli4.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::234 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:13388 Archived-At: On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 8:19 PM, David Kastrup wrote: > The .go organization and call gate costs (for example constant string > conversions) and memory organization and foreign string hardiness issues > bogging down LilyPond will affect interfacing to every external library > with a high call rate for processing. I respect LilyPond contributors and people who put effort on it. But it's not on my hack-line. If someone really care about it, it'll be done someday definitely. > The technical problems won't go away by themselves. > > So which migration of a large Python-based application do you expect to > become a thing without addressing significant amounts of technical > problems first? Or how do I have to interpret your "No, I don't think > so."? > If I don't say "no, I don't think so", should I say "well, yes, Guile has no chance, let's remove it".? ;-) I think most of the people in Guile community knows the problems and difficulties, it's unnecessary to repeat them again, what we need is to find the solution. I gave part of solution, and I'm enjoying to go with it. If you're afraid of "large python based apps", how about get a seat and see how others solve it? Anyway, talking the problems and difficulties people already know again and again is a contribution too. Then we don't need to write TODO. Do you think I know nothing about the complexity? I'll tell you that I love that complexity so I'm in. When I came to Guile community 7 years ago, I know nothing as a pure newbie. But now I know I can learn many things each time when I challenge the difficulties. If you feel depressed when you face LilyPond, please don't forget I feel frustrated when I'm debugging the Artanis server-core and our JIT compiler too. No one is facing the easy job. Frankly, I have better idea than migrating all Python pacakges: just migrate when you need it, or write a better one. I'm trying to use Guile things in real products, so I'm serious. I still want to ask "why do we have to compare to Python?" I'm going to write guile-python3 because some young people in my team has difficult to use Scheme directly, and we don't want them to rewrite whole things in Scheme again. But Guile will bring many potential advantages rather than our current Python and C++14 combination. Be more confident, folks. That's why the answer from me is "no, I don't think so". Best regards.