Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Mark H Weaver]

Hello all,

In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
co-maintainer of GNU Guile.

     Thanks,
       Mark

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Vladimir Zhbanov]

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 01:41:00AM -0400, Mark H Weaver wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
> co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
> 
>      Thanks,
>        Mark
>

Glad to hear it, thank you :-)

-- 
  Vladimir

(λ)επτόν EDA — https://github.com/lepton-eda

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[sirgazil]

---- On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 00:41:00 -0500 Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote ----

 > Hello all, 
 >  
 > In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a 
 > co-maintainer of GNU Guile. 
 >  
 >  Thanks, 
 >  Mark 
 >  
 > 

\o/


---
https://sirgazil.bitbucket.io/

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Jean Louis]

* Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> [2019-10-16 01:42]:
> Hello all,
> 
> In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
> co-maintainer of GNU Guile.

I am welcoming it, thank you for stepping back up.

Jean

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[zx spectrumgomas]

I'm a simple Guile user and I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mark H weaver are
saying half-thruth here
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
because he has a very close friendship witch Richard Stallmam:
"I've known RMS for a long time. For a few years, I spent most of my time
two doors down from him at the MIT AI lab. I was the FSF staff sysadmin for
a while, and did sysadmin work on RMS's laptop. I was his preferred typist
when he shattered his elbow and helped him replace his bandages, etc."
http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2014-08-09.log

I think the joint statement
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ is the
true key factor of his return.

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:42 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
> co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
>
>      Thanks,
>        Mark
>
>

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Mikael Djurfeldt]

I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.

Helping or being friend with someone is not among the worst crimes on my
list.

Den tors 17 okt. 2019 11:28zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skrev:

> I'm a simple Guile user and I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mark H weaver are
> saying half-thruth here
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
> because he has a very close friendship witch Richard Stallmam:
> "I've known RMS for a long time. For a few years, I spent most of my time
> two doors down from him at the MIT AI lab. I was the FSF staff sysadmin for
> a while, and did sysadmin work on RMS's laptop. I was his preferred typist
> when he shattered his elbow and helped him replace his bandages, etc."
> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2014-08-09.log
>
> I think the joint statement
> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ is the
> true key factor of his return.
>
> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:42 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
> > co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
> >
> >      Thanks,
> >        Mark
> >
> >
>

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[tomas]

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On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:24:03PM +0200, Mikael Djurfeldt wrote:
> I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.

Definitely. I think this should count for *all*. Second-guessing anyone
in this difficult situation can only add more difficulties on top.

I think each of us should apply Hanlon's razor with much generosity.

Towards all people involved (that doesn't mean we should paper over
the obvious problems we have, mind you).

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 12:33:33 +0200
> From: <tomas@tuxteam.de>
> Cc: zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>, guile-user <guile-user@gnu.org>,
>  guile-devel <guile-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:24:03PM +0200, Mikael Djurfeldt wrote:
> > I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.
> 
> Definitely. I think this should count for *all*. Second-guessing anyone
> in this difficult situation can only add more difficulties on top.

Agreed.

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[zx spectrumgomas]

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Let's hope so. But in Spain we have a proverb: "Blanco y en botella,
leche". "White and bottle -> milk". Let's hope it doesn't come true.

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mikael Djurfeldt <mikael@djurfeldt.com>
wrote:

> I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.
>
> Helping or being friend with someone is not among the worst crimes on my
> list.
>
> Den tors 17 okt. 2019 11:28zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
> skrev:
>
>> I'm a simple Guile user and I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mark H weaver
>> are
>> saying half-thruth here
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
>> because he has a very close friendship witch Richard Stallmam:
>> "I've known RMS for a long time. For a few years, I spent most of my time
>> two doors down from him at the MIT AI lab. I was the FSF staff sysadmin
>> for
>> a while, and did sysadmin work on RMS's laptop. I was his preferred typist
>> when he shattered his elbow and helped him replace his bandages, etc."
>> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2014-08-09.log
>>
>> I think the joint statement
>> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ is the
>> true key factor of his return.
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:42 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello all,
>> >
>> > In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
>> > co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
>> >
>> >      Thanks,
>> >        Mark
>> >
>> >
>>
>

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Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Neil Jerram]

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I'm afraid arguing by analogy or proverb rarely helps, because the analogy
is usually inaccurate in some way.

Also, what about Horchata? :-)

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 11:53, zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Let's hope so. But in Spain we have a proverb: "Blanco y en botella,
> leche". "White and bottle -> milk". Let's hope it doesn't come true.
>
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mikael Djurfeldt <mikael@djurfeldt.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.
>>
>> Helping or being friend with someone is not among the worst crimes on my
>> list.
>>
>> Den tors 17 okt. 2019 11:28zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
>> skrev:
>>
>>> I'm a simple Guile user and I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mark H weaver
>>> are
>>> saying half-thruth here
>>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
>>> because he has a very close friendship witch Richard Stallmam:
>>> "I've known RMS for a long time. For a few years, I spent most of my time
>>> two doors down from him at the MIT AI lab. I was the FSF staff sysadmin
>>> for
>>> a while, and did sysadmin work on RMS's laptop. I was his preferred
>>> typist
>>> when he shattered his elbow and helped him replace his bandages, etc."
>>> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2014-08-09.log
>>>
>>> I think the joint statement
>>> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ is
>>> the
>>> true key factor of his return.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:42 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hello all,
>>> >
>>> > In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
>>> > co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
>>> >
>>> >      Thanks,
>>> >        Mark
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>

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Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[zx spectrumgomas]

I was tempted to make that joke too :D . Yes, let's hope it's horchata.

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 1:22 PM Neil Jerram <neiljerram@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm afraid arguing by analogy or proverb rarely helps, because the analogy
> is usually inaccurate in some way.
>
> Also, what about Horchata? :-)
>
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 11:53, zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Let's hope so. But in Spain we have a proverb: "Blanco y en botella,
>> leche". "White and bottle -> milk". Let's hope it doesn't come true.
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mikael Djurfeldt <mikael@djurfeldt.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.
>>>
>>> Helping or being friend with someone is not among the worst crimes on my
>>> list.
>>>
>>> Den tors 17 okt. 2019 11:28zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
>>> skrev:
>>>
>>>> I'm a simple Guile user and I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mark H weaver
>>>> are
>>>> saying half-thruth here
>>>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
>>>> because he has a very close friendship witch Richard Stallmam:
>>>> "I've known RMS for a long time. For a few years, I spent most of my
>>>> time
>>>> two doors down from him at the MIT AI lab. I was the FSF staff sysadmin
>>>> for
>>>> a while, and did sysadmin work on RMS's laptop. I was his preferred
>>>> typist
>>>> when he shattered his elbow and helped him replace his bandages, etc."
>>>> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2014-08-09.log
>>>>
>>>> I think the joint statement
>>>> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ is
>>>> the
>>>> true key factor of his return.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:42 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Hello all,
>>>> >
>>>> > In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
>>>> > co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
>>>> >
>>>> >      Thanks,
>>>> >        Mark
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[zx spectrumgomas]

It's milk
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00031.html

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 1:38 PM zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I was tempted to make that joke too :D . Yes, let's hope it's horchata.
>
> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 1:22 PM Neil Jerram <neiljerram@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm afraid arguing by analogy or proverb rarely helps, because the
>> analogy is usually inaccurate in some way.
>>
>> Also, what about Horchata? :-)
>>
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 11:53, zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Let's hope so. But in Spain we have a proverb: "Blanco y en botella,
>>> leche". "White and bottle -> milk". Let's hope it doesn't come true.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 12:24 PM Mikael Djurfeldt <mikael@djurfeldt.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think we should trust what Mark says and not second guess him.
>>>>
>>>> Helping or being friend with someone is not among the worst crimes on
>>>> my list.
>>>>
>>>> Den tors 17 okt. 2019 11:28zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
>>>> skrev:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm a simple Guile user and I hope I'm wrong, but I think Mark H
>>>>> weaver are
>>>>> saying half-thruth here
>>>>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
>>>>> because he has a very close friendship witch Richard Stallmam:
>>>>> "I've known RMS for a long time. For a few years, I spent most of my
>>>>> time
>>>>> two doors down from him at the MIT AI lab. I was the FSF staff
>>>>> sysadmin for
>>>>> a while, and did sysadmin work on RMS's laptop. I was his preferred
>>>>> typist
>>>>> when he shattered his elbow and helped him replace his bandages, etc."
>>>>> http://logs.guix.gnu.org/guile/2014-08-09.log
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the joint statement
>>>>> https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/ is
>>>>> the
>>>>> true key factor of his return.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:42 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > Hello all,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > In light of recent events, I've decided to step back up as a
>>>>> > co-maintainer of GNU Guile.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >      Thanks,
>>>>> >        Mark
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Mark H Weaver]

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> It's milk
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00031.html

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what this means.  If you are accusing
me of something, can you state your case clearly, without reference to
proverbs?

       Mark

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[zx spectrumgomas]

Of your words: “RMS has not yet appointed me as a co-maintainer.” , the
word “yet” I guess that means if he would have had his permission then you
wouldn't have needed it of the current maintainers, as I also deduce from
here:
“Frankly, it should not be your decision to make.”
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
That is to say, you are apologizing because you have lacked that "yet",
otherwise you believe that your behaviour had been correct. My opinion is
that's not right, and more, as you said "in light of recent events"
https://guix.gnu.org/blog/2019/joint-statement-on-the-gnu-project/

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 9:26 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:

> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> > It's milk
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00031.html
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't understand what this means.  If you are accusing
> me of something, can you state your case clearly, without reference to
> proverbs?
>
>        Mark
>

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[tomas]

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On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 10:36:17AM +0200, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
[...]

You are not being helpful. Please, stop this.

-- tomás

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Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Ulrich Küttler]

Hi guys,

I am new to all of this and I can tell you, I love guile and the guile
documentation. It is such a nice system. Incredible. Thanks for building
and maintaining guile. I enjoy it immensely.

Cheers
Uli

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Mark H Weaver]

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:

> Of your words: “RMS has not yet appointed me as a co-maintainer.” , the
> word “yet” I guess that means if he would have had his permission then you
> wouldn't have needed it of the current maintainers, as I also deduce from
> here:
> “Frankly, it should not be your decision to make.”
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html

Yes, and I stand by that statement.  I made my case clearly in the
message cited above.

That said, I agree that it would have been improper for RMS to appoint
me without first consulting the existing maintainers.  In fact,
discussions are currently ongoing with Andy and Ludovic to resolve the
situation, and I'm hopeful that we'll reach a mutually acceptable
resolution.

Regarding my phrase "In light of recent events", which I cited as the
reason for my decision to return, I should now be clear what I meant by
that:

GNU is far more fragile than I had supposed.  It's like if your mother
has a heart attack, and you suddenly realize that although you've always
taken her presence in your life for granted, her mortality has now
become real to you in a way that it wasn't before.

I realize now that I took GNU's continued existence and integrity for
granted, like a steady rock that I naively assumed would be there and
stay strong regardless of whether I was a part of it or not.  Now I see
that it will depend on all of us who care about software freedom to do
what we can to keep GNU strong.

I'm not interested in dividing the Guile community.  That would
obviously be disastrous.  I fully support Andy's work, and I recognize
that he is the main driver in core Guile development.  His continued
participation is crucial.  Still, we must guard against Guile becoming a
one-man show if it can possibly be avoided.  Keeping GNU strong means,
among other things, resolving our differences peacefully and working
together to make Guile better.  That's what I intend to do.

I hope that clarifies things.

      Thanks,
        Mark

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[Alex Sassmannshausen]

Hi Mark,

Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> writes:

> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Of your words: “RMS has not yet appointed me as a co-maintainer.” , the
>> word “yet” I guess that means if he would have had his permission then you
>> wouldn't have needed it of the current maintainers, as I also deduce from
>> here:
>> “Frankly, it should not be your decision to make.”
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
>
> Yes, and I stand by that statement.  I made my case clearly in the
> message cited above.
>
> That said, I agree that it would have been improper for RMS to appoint
> me without first consulting the existing maintainers.  In fact,
> discussions are currently ongoing with Andy and Ludovic to resolve the
> situation, and I'm hopeful that we'll reach a mutually acceptable
> resolution.
>
> Regarding my phrase "In light of recent events", which I cited as the
> reason for my decision to return, I should now be clear what I meant by
> that:
>
> GNU is far more fragile than I had supposed.  It's like if your mother
> has a heart attack, and you suddenly realize that although you've always
> taken her presence in your life for granted, her mortality has now
> become real to you in a way that it wasn't before.
>
> I realize now that I took GNU's continued existence and integrity for
> granted, like a steady rock that I naively assumed would be there and
> stay strong regardless of whether I was a part of it or not.  Now I see
> that it will depend on all of us who care about software freedom to do
> what we can to keep GNU strong.
>
> I'm not interested in dividing the Guile community.  That would
> obviously be disastrous.  I fully support Andy's work, and I recognize
> that he is the main driver in core Guile development.  His continued
> participation is crucial.  Still, we must guard against Guile becoming a
> one-man show if it can possibly be avoided.  Keeping GNU strong means,
> among other things, resolving our differences peacefully and working
> together to make Guile better.  That's what I intend to do.
>
> I hope that clarifies things.
>
>       Thanks,
>         Mark

I value your incredibly thoughtful comments, and elaboration of your
concerns.  I really hope you manage to come to an agreement that works
for all of you.

Best wishes,

Alex

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[zx spectrumgomas]

Yes, it clarifies things. I don't agree with you, but you have a noble
heart. I hope you all come to an agreement.Thanks.

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:27 AM Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:

> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Of your words: “RMS has not yet appointed me as a co-maintainer.” , the
> > word “yet” I guess that means if he would have had his permission then
> you
> > wouldn't have needed it of the current maintainers, as I also deduce from
> > here:
> > “Frankly, it should not be your decision to make.”
> > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2019-10/msg00021.html
>
> Yes, and I stand by that statement.  I made my case clearly in the
> message cited above.
>
> That said, I agree that it would have been improper for RMS to appoint
> me without first consulting the existing maintainers.  In fact,
> discussions are currently ongoing with Andy and Ludovic to resolve the
> situation, and I'm hopeful that we'll reach a mutually acceptable
> resolution.
>
> Regarding my phrase "In light of recent events", which I cited as the
> reason for my decision to return, I should now be clear what I meant by
> that:
>
> GNU is far more fragile than I had supposed.  It's like if your mother
> has a heart attack, and you suddenly realize that although you've always
> taken her presence in your life for granted, her mortality has now
> become real to you in a way that it wasn't before.
>
> I realize now that I took GNU's continued existence and integrity for
> granted, like a steady rock that I naively assumed would be there and
> stay strong regardless of whether I was a part of it or not.  Now I see
> that it will depend on all of us who care about software freedom to do
> what we can to keep GNU strong.
>
> I'm not interested in dividing the Guile community.  That would
> obviously be disastrous.  I fully support Andy's work, and I recognize
> that he is the main driver in core Guile development.  His continued
> participation is crucial.  Still, we must guard against Guile becoming a
> one-man show if it can possibly be avoided.  Keeping GNU strong means,
> among other things, resolving our differences peacefully and working
> together to make Guile better.  That's what I intend to do.
>
> I hope that clarifies things.
>
>       Thanks,
>         Mark
>

Re: Stepping back up as a co-maintainer

[tomas]

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On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 11:51:52AM +0200, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> Yes, it clarifies things. I don't agree with you, but you have a noble
> heart. I hope you all come to an agreement.Thanks.

Thanks :)

and... agreed. I've been mostly a bystander here, but have
perceived most of you (Andy, Mark, Mikael, all of you) as
outstanding persons. Thank you all for that.

We have a difficult situation now. Let's sort it out without
throwing things at each other. Inuendo, and he-said-she-said
don't help. Let's be clear, but at the same time let's be
compassionate. Each of us deserves that.

Cheers
-- t

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