From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Catonano Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Newbie thoughts on Guile Hall + Guix Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2022 07:28:27 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87a6f1mtz3.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18967"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Guile User To: Blake Shaw Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 09 07:29:10 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nHgTW-0004mN-32 for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2022 07:29:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39948 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHgTU-00062L-RS for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2022 01:29:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52828) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHgT6-00060F-G7 for guile-user@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2022 01:28:45 -0500 Original-Received: from [2a00:1450:4864:20::62e] (port=44869 helo=mail-ej1-x62e.google.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHgT4-0000h2-Gw for guile-user@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Feb 2022 01:28:44 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x62e.google.com with SMTP id ka4so4251119ejc.11 for ; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 22:28:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uzfr/sqnNy26BO4on4YX8UuUgzPer80XSfubJGhCiSI=; b=XCYH/ELFTd27u/DQ6Uw0rNjmpEwbtmt4Y5RunudCd3AS7lNgvG5GTct0UuWRmWth0c nUl+7Jz7e3sD8mx9vWPSF0/qsRYEA2m7v7iRFSjjvctzXgEyKVpJWVbVQrcfJB2GL1Iw 1/NcsaYy+N6Y7qrpn1KsN1xRDK+SrzxpjgSiC4uzhNhju+GUXp2XSqu6/Q8c+Kkdt9TT 4m7g11EBJIjH4UGfDeWDu3pCd05zb1nJyp924ZuqLHOecAm1PVni32Mc6Zd0Foy6PDYX wVWxWFhqbzv8iE1w7kOJMoX164PGTOFbB97qK6d0VNID4oWHv79MjGpMb9xy6/k+7qKn ZsHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uzfr/sqnNy26BO4on4YX8UuUgzPer80XSfubJGhCiSI=; b=WZfHaTNb0OgHFKVgiXTC64eL8Ea7awd+7V7d4zMxh1M+1jQeIZ5wmoRcEQstrX/sCb QRCjJTK0RD+63tBF6u/goOOw9S/715eDox+jDfgC9CDSLKnWneECxAbkCkTg7tl41KvO 692IEYl86hY6UmWn/9No7w8Jyoh7mzI8jzWdoBP5XJ6ZcTyLP7T2bdP1z+L/yJDzX5aF W9jgySTjAaMSQGNOvoJRNM8uwkiS17nUFaSyP8hnJyqwrVhISj327dcHmSz/gE8n9LBU NzOD4YhSnCqYs/th/H/5CtbTanf+IOWNYWeKqMSPLYbiMdH6yRy+20sbgLKDKODRBcx0 kANA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532r8qZ5UwLyuzsJzC4umtwJi05pvtX5aEMnLaZ5YYKqrB6YKRk3 wBQCI83C+dtUoNU0iH11wpdgBzmmpQm2zneaoQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+xo0t2m72PYXNDuHd92JuexmPyJQQws2qd0t0C0M3bUg7oEuPx+r0HUsOwLQ9ENW4Yc5jBlQFVlrsQhgVSkM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:96aa:: with SMTP id hd42mr635133ejc.74.1644388120043; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 22:28:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <87a6f1mtz3.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> X-Host-Lookup-Failed: Reverse DNS lookup failed for 2a00:1450:4864:20::62e (failed) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::62e; envelope-from=catonano@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x62e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.3 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, PDS_HP_HELO_NORDNS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RDNS_NONE=0.793, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18045 Archived-At: Hi Blake, I'm Adriano , it' just happens that I'm reading this message of yours from another account Il giorno mar 8 feb 2022 alle ore 14:39 Blake Shaw < blake@nonconstructivism.com> ha scritto: > Vijay Marupudi writes: > > I don't think it's fair to say that using packages in Guile just as > > easy/hard as other languages. Python / Javascript make this incredibly > > easy, and their ecosystem is evidence for that success. Their package > > managers have flaws, but they have benefits too, and those benefits > > would be great for Guile. > > I would just like to tag onto this convo that I agree that its not fair > to say that Guile is easy and will quickly bless those who endeavor to > learn it with superpowers. My experience w/Racket was very smooth and I > got working in it very quickly. I was a contracted to work on a project in > Python a few months ago and without ever studying it I was able to > start doing production work in it (ridiculous how intuitive it is, > really). Before I started learning Guile I read Edwin Brady's book on > Idris and found Idris much easier to get from start to end of small > projects I was working on (because there is a well written book on it). > > While Guile has become my favorite programming language, it took me > several months to learn how to navigate & figure out how to navigate the > SRFIs, how to plan a program so that I can know what to expect along the > way (what features I'll need to implement myself, etc) before I was able > to get productive in it beyond the realm of Guix. And I think most would > agree that Scheme is a less advanced language than Idris (I did some > category theory in school so I have some intuition for the ideas, but > still). And to be honest, I still hit plenty of road blocks. > > There were definitely some times where I was digging around trying to > figure out how to do things and came across messages in the archives > saying "its so easy you just do [vague hand wavy explanation]". And I > found that quite frustrating, like there is an insularity meant to weed > out the bad apples. And when this topic popped up on the guix list a few > weeks ago some others expressed similar concerns, folks who are doing > very impressive work. A programming language should never make > programmers feel dumb -- it should make us feel empowered! > I personally believe this is a good chunk of why Guile wasn't as successful as Python With Guile the overall experience is extremely frustrating I've been hanging around here for years, on and off, and overall I haven't done anything, in Guile I managed to do some widgets in clojurescript, some modest datapipes in Clojure, a game of life with some 2d graphics library in Clojure I made some things in Python In Guile ? Nothing, nisba, nada I can relate to the experience of feeling frustrated about how casually some things are referred to on Guile channels Last time it was about the new exceptions But I remember I asked for an example of some usage of the APIs for web serving in Guile, some years ago I was kindly offered an example by Andy Wingo nonetheless But then I could follow up, I got lost, I don't remember why exactly, but I was ashamed to keep gong n any way Something similar happened when I asked about lazyness I don't think I've ever seen a community that suffers the curse of knowledge more than the Guile community This is why I was enticed to attempt the only video in my life about how to read a file (a basic use case) with Guile And I'm mumbling to do a new series about project management and package building And about delimited continuations And, and, and.... That is, my hope now is that Guile can be made into something empowering, so that it will be useful to someone else in the future rather than disempowering as it has always been (for me at least) I've been terribly frustrated about this in the past and I'm so refreshed to see you landing here, in Guile land One final note: while I have been emotional about this in the past, I believe I'm not being emotional now My remarks are not meant to disparage the Guile/Guix community, I acknowledge the generosity of this community, overall I just think that it's right and useful to raise perceived problems And I think this initiative to reconsider the structure of the manual is one of the best things that happened in a very long time After so many years I still can't tell where to look in it when I need something