From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stjepan Horvat Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: SLAYER announcement and help request for preparing a GNU package Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 08:55:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20130505051554.GA2558@intra> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e016351b0aa7aed04dbf31113 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1367736944 14263 80.91.229.3 (5 May 2013 06:55:44 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 06:55:44 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "guile-user@gnu.org" To: John Darrington Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun May 05 08:55:44 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1UYsrG-0006dl-Gp for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 May 2013 08:55:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58458 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UYsrF-0005qZ-NV for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Sun, 05 May 2013 02:55:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:56827) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UYsr4-0005qU-KM for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2013 02:55:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UYsr2-00037R-FZ for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2013 02:55:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ea0-x22d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4013:c01::22d]:49836) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1UYsr2-00037L-5F for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 05 May 2013 02:55:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ea0-f173.google.com with SMTP id d10so1241876eaj.4 for ; Sat, 04 May 2013 23:55:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id :subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=e0n21j4+Op4sS55P6yzweiri77tU7auZh45NOZf5s04=; b=P7riLutuwPOFJSilp3W2hdryqmeo0gpiRPohNwOynI5LpGoWv4u/S7ZGjWMuuM1fMk 7OjMQslMt0Pk1YxwhIw7Z8pXOfJ2CA3dK8ShgRgF5S0Yl1jXGYSnGRPhjI+8mC/sg7Tg tCCpUzzj2q7EcvGb7dfFhySp8FrzJjjbFgwITEU/6ooCNXeVwa7ziydTQcC6QuDFzvBy qAcZNsnPyXposz6DiouuXcun0xIG8gfvqPx33fFMKDm0GRQseAZHwIyugodrUXU537hj 4g34kFTU2jhiFRab+Hwn9QE/IAv4DM2Zkf6+CABo33SSuWbNDQd83A15sAeOotGAfdSA In6A== X-Received: by 10.15.23.69 with SMTP id g45mr47835787eeu.25.1367736926751; Sat, 04 May 2013 23:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.14.140.5 with HTTP; Sat, 4 May 2013 23:55:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20130505051554.GA2558@intra> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4013:c01::22d X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:10313 Archived-At: --089e016351b0aa7aed04dbf31113 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It sounds fun although i'm guile newb..i'm just starting to learn how recursion works and have written few simple functions reading The_Little_Schemer..It would be cool to have a binary gui for programs writen in c and has guile as extension language.. On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:15 AM, John Darrington < john@darrington.wattle.id.au> wrote: > It sounds like an interesting project. > > The subject line of your post says it is a "GNU Package", but I don't see > slayer in > the official list. Perhaps you mean it is one that you want to submit to > GNU in the hope that they will adopt it as a package? Or did you mean > something > else? Obviously how to it should be laid out will depend on that a lot. > > Like you say, lack of documentation is will be a big factor in getting > users. > How will people know how to use it, and perhaps more importantly WHY the > should > use it? > > Autotools can indeed be tricky - and a time consuming part of maintaining= a > package - but they do make it a hell of a lot easier for the general publ= ic > to build, especially on wierd systems. > > Lack of features is a concern - but if you have a dedicated user base, > even a small > one, you will get requests for them. However, if you don't have decent > documentation, > and a reliable and portable build system, then you won't have any users > .... > > > J' > > > On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 11:54:44PM +0200, Panicz Maciej Godek wrote: > Hi everyone, > I've developed a piece of software that I named SLAYER, by combining > the > letter 's' with the word "layer", or replacing the 'p' letter with > 's' in > the word 'player'. > > Either way, slayer can be thought of as a simpler alternative for > wrapper > libraries such as guile-sdl and guile-opengl, or as a programming > environment that is in a way competetive to Adobe Flash (with > standalone > player). But obviously, it is something completely different. > > I made this program as a base for research in GUI design, but it als= o > contains a stub of a 3d game engine that I'm planning to implement -= - > which > explains native support for OpenGL. I recently thought that it also > could > be a great platform for teaching kids to program games, because -- > once > compiled and linked -- it could be distributed as a standalone > package, > that requires no additional tools. > > The program is available through mercurial on bitbucket: > > hg clone https://bitbucket.org/panicz/slayer > > The repository contains README file, which lists packages that are > needed > to build. Except a little mess, there are two demos that show the > possibilities of the system. The first one with the command: > > $ ./slayer -e3d > > The -e3d option is needed to enable the "3d" extension, which is > required > by the demo. It allows to move around in a 3d space using mouse and > WSAD > keys. There's also a draggable icon and a simple text-console, which > accepts s-expressions (evaluated using f1 key). It is activated with= a > click, but for some reason the cursor isn't always displayed. The > source > file is slayer.scm. > > The second demo is the classical arcade PONG game (for two players). > It's > written in the raw guile+slayer, so it's pretty lengthy (~160 lines)= , > but > it should be easily understandable. PONG can be run using > $ ./slayer -i pong.scm > > Both demos use sound, which can be disabled by passing the --nosound > option > in the command line. PONG can also receive the -e3d option, which > would > force it to use opengl for display. > > Other command line options are undocumented, but they can be easily > found > in slayer.c. I admit that the lack of any documentation can now be > the most > seriously discouraging factor, but I promise to respond to every > question > eagerly. > > The second most seriously discouraging factor would be the build > process, > which could require manual editing of the Makefile, among others. It > would > be lovely to use the GNU autotools, but they seem so complicated, an= d > I > thought that since you might have more experience with those, you > could > help me to prepare a decent release, and perhaps to reorganize the > structure of the source code. > > Perhaps the third most seriously discouraging factor (except some > random > crashes that still happen) would be the lack of certain features: I'= m > trying to apply the 'lazy implementation' strategy and add SDL/OpenG= L > features only as I need them, and also my priority is to keep > interfaces > simple, even at the cost of programmer's freedom (so for instance, > there's > no option for choosing color index mode in OpenGL, or some other SDL > video > mode than the default). > > Despite those factors, I'd be happy to hear some feedback from you. > > Best regards, > M. > > -- > PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3 > fingerprint =3D 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285 A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3 > See http://keys.gnupg.net or any PGP keyserver for public key. > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) > > iEYEARECAAYFAlGF6wkACgkQimdxnC3oJ7Pd5ACeOqfjo33M2YA+e7sEbvpR9g82 > 7mMAmgNMwztNlpQHBg5OMwzjDgvaMmqE > =3DL1uC > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > --=20 *Nesmotren govori kao da ma=E8em probada, a jezik je mudrih iscjeljenje. Izreke 12:18* --089e016351b0aa7aed04dbf31113 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It sounds fun although i'm guile newb..i'm just starting to learn h= ow recursion works and have written few simple functions reading The_Little= _Schemer..It would be cool to have a binary gui for programs writen in c an= d has guile as extension language..

On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 7:15 AM, John Darring= ton <john@darrington.wattle.id.au> wrote:
It sounds like an interesting project.

The subject line of your post says it is a "GNU Package", but I d= on't see slayer in
the official list. =C2=A0Perhaps you mean it is one that you want to submit= to
GNU in the hope that they will adopt it as a package? Or did you mean somet= hing
else? Obviously how to it should be laid out will depend on that a lot.

Like you say, lack of documentation is will be a big factor in getting user= s.
How will people know how to use it, and perhaps more importantly WHY the sh= ould
use it?

Autotools can indeed be tricky - and a time consuming part of maintaining a=
package - but they do make it a hell of a lot easier for the general public=
to build, especially on wierd systems.

Lack of features is a concern - but if you have a dedicated user base, even= a small
one, you will get requests for them. =C2=A0However, if you don't have d= ecent documentation,
and a reliable and portable build system, then you won't have any users= ....


J'


On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 11:54:44PM +0200, Panicz Maciej Godek wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi everyone,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I've developed a piece of software that I named SLA= YER, by combining the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0letter 's' with the word "layer", or = replacing the 'p' letter with 's' in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the word 'player'.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Either way, slayer can be thought of as a simpler alter= native for wrapper
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0libraries such as guile-sdl and guile-opengl, or as a p= rogramming
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0environment that is in a way competetive to Adobe Flash= (with standalone
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0player). But obviously, it is something completely diff= erent.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I made this program as a base for research in GUI desig= n, but it also
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contains a stub of a 3d game engine that I'm planni= ng to implement -- which
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explains native support for OpenGL. I recently thought = that it also could
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be a great platform for teaching kids to program games,= because -- once
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0compiled and linked -- it could be distributed as a sta= ndalone package,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that requires no additional tools.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The program is available through mercurial on bitbucket= :

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hg clone https://bitbucket.org/panicz/slayer

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The repository contains README file, which lists packag= es that are needed
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to build. Except a little mess, there are two demos tha= t show the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0possibilities of the system. The first one with the com= mand:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0$ ./slayer -e3d

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The -e3d option is needed to enable the "3d" = extension, which is required
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0by the demo. It allows to move around in a 3d space usi= ng mouse and WSAD
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keys. There's also a draggable icon and a simple te= xt-console, which
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accepts s-expressions (evaluated using f1 key). It is a= ctivated with a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0click, but for some reason the cursor isn't always = displayed. The source
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0file is slayer.scm.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The second demo is the classical arcade PONG game (for = two players). It's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0written in the raw guile+slayer, so it's pretty len= gthy (~160 lines), but
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it should be easily understandable. PONG can be run usi= ng
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0$ ./slayer -i pong.scm

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Both demos use sound, which can be disabled by passing = the --nosound option
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the command line. PONG can also receive the -e3d opt= ion, which would
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0force it to use opengl for display.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Other command line options are undocumented, but they c= an be easily found
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in slayer.c. I admit that the lack of any documentation= can now be the most
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0seriously discouraging factor, but I promise to respond= to every question
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0eagerly.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The second most seriously discouraging factor would be = the build process,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0which could require manual editing of the Makefile, amo= ng others. It would
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0be lovely to use the GNU autotools, but they seem so co= mplicated, and I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0thought that since you might have more experience with = those, you could
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0help me to prepare a decent release, and perhaps to reo= rganize the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0structure of the source code.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Perhaps the third most seriously discouraging factor (e= xcept some random
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0crashes that still happen) would be the lack of certain= features: I'm
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0trying to apply the 'lazy implementation' strat= egy and add SDL/OpenGL
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0features only as I need them, and also my priority is t= o keep interfaces
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0simple, even at the cost of programmer's freedom (s= o for instance, there's
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0no option for choosing color index mode in OpenGL, or s= ome other SDL video
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mode than the default).

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Despite those factors, I'd be happy to hear some fe= edback from you.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0M.

--
PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3
fingerprint =3D 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285 =C2=A0A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3
See http://keys.gnupg.n= et or any PGP keyserver for public key.


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlGF6wkACgkQimdxnC3oJ7Pd5ACeOqfjo33M2YA+e7sEbvpR9g82
7mMAmgNMwztNlpQHBg5OMwzjDgvaMmqE
=3DL1uC
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----




--
Nesmotren govori kao da ma=C4=8Dem probada, a jezik je m= udrih iscjeljenje. Izreke 12:18
--089e016351b0aa7aed04dbf31113--