GNU Guile community in google+

GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Greg Troxel]

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zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:

> I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
> https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es

I always find it odd and #disturbing that Free Software communities use
sites like this, built with non-free software and with at best unclear
privacy policies.  But perhaps the guile community is not using this.


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Nala Ginrut]

On Sun, 2012-12-16 at 21:03 -0500, Greg Troxel wrote:
> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
> > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es
> 
> I always find it odd and #disturbing that Free Software communities use
> sites like this, built with non-free software and with at best unclear
> privacy policies.  But perhaps the guile community is not using this.
> 

I think this couldn't be the official one (for the privacy policies),
but Guilers do need a place to play together.
Besides, may Guilers use gmail which is also a google product, like me,
so I don't think we should against it.

PS: If someday we can finish guile-on-rails, we can build such a
community with Guile itself. 

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Mark H Weaver]

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
> https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es

No, please do not join this so-called "community".  Google+, like
Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to
centralize control of internet communications.  They abuse the privacy
of their users in many ways and must be rejected.

I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking
sites, and I know Ludovic Courtès feels the same way.  As far as I know
Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either.

The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on
irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols
that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to
identify yourself.

zx spectrumgomas, I would ask that you please delete this so-called
Google+ "community".

     Mark

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Nala Ginrut]

On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 01:36 -0500, Mark H Weaver wrote:
> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
> > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es
> 
> No, please do not join this so-called "community".  Google+, like
> Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to
> centralize control of internet communications.  They abuse the privacy
> of their users in many ways and must be rejected.
> 
> I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking
> sites, and I know Ludovic Courtès feels the same way.  As far as I know
> Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either.
> 
> The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on
> irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols
> that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to
> identify yourself.
> 

OK, I left it. But should we have a more powerful site for our
community? The classic Guile main site seems too lean for the fans.

> zx spectrumgomas, I would ask that you please delete this so-called
> Google+ "community".
> 
>      Mark
> 

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[John Darrington]

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On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 03:02:44PM +0800, Nala Ginrut wrote:
     On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 01:36 -0500, Mark H Weaver wrote:
     > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
     > > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
     > > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es
     > 
     > No, please do not join this so-called "community".  Google+, like
     > Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to
     > centralize control of internet communications.  They abuse the privacy
     > of their users in many ways and must be rejected.
     > 
     > I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking
     > sites, and I know Ludovic Court??s feels the same way.  As far as I know
     > Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either.
     > 
     > The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on
     > irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols
     > that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to
     > identify yourself.
     > 
     
     OK, I left it. But should we have a more powerful site for our
     community? The classic Guile main site seems too lean for the fans.
     
What's wrong with this mailing list? and of course the #guile channel on=20
freenode   ?   Are they not good enough?

If somebody wants to to create some additional forum, I would not be against
it.   But like others have suggested, Google does not seem to believe in the
same ideals as Guile so it would not seem to be the best place to create it.
Maybe a group on libreplanet.org would be a possibility?
http://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:Software_Groups

J'

     
     

-- 
PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3 
fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285  A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3
See http://keys.gnupg.net or any PGP keyserver for public key.


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Nala Ginrut]

On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 09:21 +0100, John Darrington wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 03:02:44PM +0800, Nala Ginrut wrote:
>      On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 01:36 -0500, Mark H Weaver wrote:
>      > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
>      > > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
>      > > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es
>      > 
>      > No, please do not join this so-called "community".  Google+, like
>      > Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to
>      > centralize control of internet communications.  They abuse the privacy
>      > of their users in many ways and must be rejected.
>      > 
>      > I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking
>      > sites, and I know Ludovic Court??s feels the same way.  As far as I know
>      > Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either.
>      > 
>      > The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on
>      > irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols
>      > that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to
>      > identify yourself.
>      > 
>      
>      OK, I left it. But should we have a more powerful site for our
>      community? The classic Guile main site seems too lean for the fans.
>      
> What's wrong with this mailing list? and of course the #guile channel on=20
> freenode   ?   Are they not good enough?
> 

I didn't mean any wrong with this mailing list, I've learned many things
here. It's just a suggestion we may add new things for our
communication.
With the developing of Guile, we do need new things to share more,
say ,wiki/forum...
And guilers may share tutorials/articles/projects on it, like other
community does.

> If somebody wants to to create some additional forum, I would not be against
> it.   But like others have suggested, Google does not seem to believe in the
> same ideals as Guile so it would not seem to be the best place to create it.
> Maybe a group on libreplanet.org would be a possibility?
> http://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:Software_Groups
> 
> J'
> 
>      

I think this place is nice! ;-)
Besides, I'd like to share tutorials/articles in English/Chinese on the
wiki.

The problem is, who's going to create/maintain it? Any volunteers?
And could this be the official part of Guile?

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Mark H Weaver]

I'd encourage everyone to watch this important speech by Eben Moglen:

  http://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia

He makes the point far more powerfully that I ever could about what is
at stake.

    Thanks,
      Mark

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

Sorry, I'm not native speaker and I can't understand English videos
well. I'm a Spanish and it has opened an account in google+
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2012/7/31/1343742378641/Skyfall-trailer-pic-7-008.jpg

:D

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

Sorry, google traductor.  I'm Spanish and I've opened an account in google+

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

Andy Wingo sends its comments from identi.ca to twitter because he
thinks that it may be useful. In fact, I follow him there. In my
opinion this is something quite similar. I know many people disagree
with google+, but for example  Gtk+ has just opened and many people
have joined.

I am a newbie, but in Google+ I would write SICP's exercises I'm going
to do. Here not just because no one else does that, it doesn't seem
the right place. In my opinion GNU guile should use such accounts for
greater mass of users.

I will not delete account, but if Andy Wingo or Ludovic Courtès say
explicitly that they do not agree with the use of that name I'll
change it for "GNU Guile (not official)". But I think it would be
ridiculous, it's evident that it isn't official.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[hellekin]

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On 12/17/2012 07:54 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> 
> I am a newbie, but in Google+ I would write SICP's exercises I'm going
> to do. Here not just because no one else does that, it doesn't seem
> the right place. In my opinion GNU guile should use such accounts for
> greater mass of users.
>
*** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I
can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly
clueless. When Google changed its privacy policy earlier this year, I
closed my account. Although Google services are attractive, I can't but
suggest that you, creator of this "GNU Guile (not official)" group, need
to learn about the motivations and the philosophy behind the GNU project.

Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM),
but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that
won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on
G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue
that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that
initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the
official community channels, and be harmful.

Regards,

==
hk


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

> *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I
> can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly
> clueless.

I've been following the list of guile about a year. If you had
followed it  I assure you that you would not see so clueless. (from
the viewpoint of a newbie)


> Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM),
> but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that
> won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on
> G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue
> that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that
> initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the
> official community channels, and be harmful.

I think you're overestimating a google+ account for newbies: if what
you say happened, GNU Guile's official forums already had a problem
before Google+ account.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Mark H Weaver]

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:

>> *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I
>> can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly
>> clueless.
>
> I've been following the list of guile about a year. If you had
> followed it  I assure you that you would not see so clueless. (from
> the viewpoint of a newbie)

This is an appeal to authority.  Here you are essentially saying "I have
more experience reading this mailing list, so trust me, I know better."

The archives of this mailing list are archived publicly, so anyone (even
newcomers) can read the same messages you've read during the last year:

  http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/

Your assertion above requires justification, and you have not provided
one.  How do the messages of the last year support your argument?
Everyone here has access to the same evidence that you do, and you can
provide links to the relevant messages.

hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> writes:
>> Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM),
>> but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that
>> won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on
>> G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue
>> that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that
>> initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the
>> official community channels, and be harmful.

Well said.

> I think you're overestimating a google+ account for newbies: if what
> you say happened, GNU Guile's official forums already had a problem
> before Google+ account.

This reply does not even begin to address the issues raised by hellekin.

If there's a problem with the official forums, let's talk about that.
What problem are you trying to solve?

Let's work together to find a solution that does not hand the keys of
our community to a for-profit corporation, and that respects users'
rights, such as the right to participate anonymously.

     Mark

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I
>>> can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly
>>> clueless.
>>
>> I've been following the list of guile about a year. If you had
>> followed it  I assure you that you would not see so clueless. (from
>> the viewpoint of a newbie)
>
> This is an appeal to authority.  Here you are essentially saying "I have
> more experience reading this mailing list, so trust me, I know better."
>
> The archives of this mailing list are archived publicly, so anyone (even
> newcomers) can read the same messages you've read during the last year:
>
>   http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/
>
> Your assertion above requires justification, and you have not provided
> one.  How do the messages of the last year support your argument?
> Everyone here has access to the same evidence that you do, and you can
> provide links to the relevant messages.

In my opinion, the problem is not these forums. People are very
friendly here and
they always answer. In fact, I would ask doubts here, it's the
suitable place. The problem is that it is ONLY a forum. It isn't a
Planet.

I think that everyone has understand me before. In fact, Libre Planet
has been suggested. (I do not know create a Libre Planet).

What do the newbies in the forum? Do we say that "I has done 2.4 SICP
exercise"? People will say, rightly, in the forum "Very well, What do
you want, a gift?" However, for other newbies may be important.

The forum works great to answer, but not as blog. In fact, the only
one who is doing a great job in this sense is Andy Wingo, but not for
newbies.



> hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> writes:
>>> Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM),
>>> but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that
>>> won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on
>>> G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue
>>> that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that
>>> initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the
>>> official community channels, and be harmful.
>
> Well said.
>
>> I think you're overestimating a google+ account for newbies: if what
>> you say happened, GNU Guile's official forums already had a problem
>> before Google+ account.
>
> This reply does not even begin to address the issues raised by hellekin.
>
> If there's a problem with the official forums, let's talk about that.
> What problem are you trying to solve?
>
> Let's work together to find a solution that does not hand the keys of
> our community to a for-profit corporation, and that respects users'
> rights, such as the right to participate anonymously.
>
>      Mark

I did not say that my proposal be ideal in regard to this. Obviously
it's true what you say in that paragraph above. But I do not know
another solution. if anyone has a better solution I would love to hear
it

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[hellekin]

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On 12/17/2012 06:24 PM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> 
> I think that everyone has understand me before. In fact, Libre Planet
> has been suggested. (I do not know create a Libre Planet).
> 
> What do the newbies in the forum? Do we say that "I has done 2.4 SICP
> exercise"? People will say, rightly, in the forum "Very well, What do
> you want, a gift?" However, for other newbies may be important.
>
> The forum works great to answer, but not as blog. In fact, the only
> one who is doing a great job in this sense is Andy Wingo, but not for
> newbies.
>
*** Good points. As a newbie, I would appreciate such entry-level
pointers and help. LibrePlanet, however, is not a "planet" (blog
aggregation), it is a wiki: you could start a page at
http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:GNU_Guile and publish your notes and
tutorials there I suppose.

==
hk

P.S.: is there a Guile "planet"? Or something like GNU blogs?


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Ludovic Courtès]

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis:

> The problem is that it is ONLY a forum. It isn't a
> Planet.

Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators
that may be relevant to Guilers, such as:

  http://planet.gnu.org/
  http://scheme.dk/planet/

Ludo’.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

From hellekin:
> *** Good points. As a newbie, I would appreciate such entry-level
> pointers and help. LibrePlanet, however, is not a "planet" (blog
> aggregation), it is a wiki: you could start a page at
> http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:GNU_Guile and publish your notes and
> tutorials there I suppose.

Well, it seems that newbies agree.  :D


From Ludovic Courtès:
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> The problem is that it is ONLY a forum. It isn't a
>> Planet.
>
> Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators
> that may be relevant to Guilers, such as:
>
>   http://planet.gnu.org/
>   http://scheme.dk/planet/
>
> Ludo’.


Yes, that's +/- what I mean. Although the model I would want is
similar to google+, with social networks and more casual. Ideal for
newbies. I think that nowadays if a project wants attract attention it
must use social networks. The problem is that there is little feedback
in Identi.ca : https://twitter.com/federicomena/status/204994604649553920
. If a newbie starts talking on identi.ca seems to be talking to the
walls: http://identi.ca/group/guile . And the twitter account does not
explain much: https://twitter.com/gnuguile .

http://planet.gnu.org obviously isn't suitable place to newbies
guilers place their notes. In my opinion this option is discarded.

http://scheme.dk/planet/ seems a better choice, but it doesn't use
social networks. It's less casual. Not ideal for newbies. Neither It
is only for GNU Guile. Besides I do not see that this page does not
supports Google. It says explicity: "To see old posts: Visit Google
Reader" "Add to Google". Racketeers also is in this planet, and they
are also in google+ :
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/108652050642990465975
https://plus.google.com/103883747126741038443/posts

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Mike Gran]

> From: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>
> Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators
> that may be relevant to Guilers, such as:
> 
>   http://planet.gnu.org/
>   http://scheme.dk/planet/

My uninteresting ramblings show up on planet.gnu.org sometimes.  But I
don't write much about Guile.
 
I've seen wingo's stuff appear on planet.gnome.org.
 
-Mike

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Mike Gran <spk121@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> From: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org>
>> Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators
>> that may be relevant to Guilers, such as:
>>
>>   http://planet.gnu.org/
>>   http://scheme.dk/planet/
>
> My uninteresting ramblings show up on planet.gnu.org sometimes.  But I
> don't write much about Guile.
>
> I've seen wingo's stuff appear on planet.gnome.org.
>
> -Mike

As you see there is no centralized location where one can find  GNU
Guile blogs, hence it would be important blog aggregators that Ludovic
Courtès mentioned. I assure you search in google guile is not easy:
https://www.google.es/search?q=guile&hl=es&client=ubuntu&hs=IQR&tbo=u&channel=fs&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6yDSUJf3C4-HhQeE-YHgBQ&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=1071&bih=757
. Scheme also is a difficult word. For example clojure did the right
thing in this sense. But of course, who did this know years ago?

This already hasn't nothing to see with Guile. But the situation of
Planet Gnome, being obviously much better than Guile, neither is
optimal. To link your blog to Planet Gnome you must have paid your
membership fee, and this, although little money, may not be easy above
all depending on the country. I do not know if this has been solved
but I think that not.
Besides, in Planet Gnome is allowed to talk about issues that are not
related to Gnome: someone tells his last trip, Miguel de Icaza can
talk if he liked his new ipad, etc. I really think it's great and fun,
but many people think it is a waste of valuable time.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:
>> Andy Wingo sends its comments from identi.ca to twitter because he
>> thinks that it may be useful.
>
> That is not nearly as bad, because the messages he publishes on twitter
> are also published on identi.ca.  Therefore, users who wish to read his
> writings are not pressured into joining twitter to do so.
>
> By publishing content that is only available on Google+, and encouraging
> others to create a community there, you are attempting to add to the
> value of Google+, and thus to increase the pressure that users feel to
> join it and contribute to it.

So if I write my comments too here then it is not too bad.
http://identi.ca/group/guile

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Ludovic Courtès]

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Hi,

As others wrote, please don’t advertise this service here.  This one and
similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in
opposition with what we stand for.

As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly
use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC.

If you think these tools aren’t suitable for your workflow, that is
fine.  In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users.  “Building a
community” should not imply giving up on essential freedoms.

Thanks in advance,
Ludo’.

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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> As others wrote, please don’t advertise this service here.  This one and
> similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in
> opposition with what we stand for.
>
> As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly
> use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC.
>
> If you think these tools aren’t suitable for your workflow, that is
> fine.  In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
> threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users.  “Building a
> community” should not imply giving up on essential freedoms.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ludo’.


the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very
good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they
don't know come up with these solutions (Me here).

In my opinion the solution is attract attention in social networks,
then get do a "gnu-rails" that mentioned here. And then resolve the
Planet's issue. As we say in Spain: You can't make a tortilla without
breaking eggs.  I understand that your opinions are morally more
respectable than mine (No irony in this sentence, it is really what I
think).  (irony #on) But in Spain it is customary to stay acquitted if
you confess your sins.

It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with  communication in
social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's
because his eyes are closed.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[John Darrington]

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On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 09:39:31AM +0100, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
     On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Ludovic Court?s <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
     > Hi,
     >
     > As others wrote, please don?t advertise this service here.  This one and
     > similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in
     > opposition with what we stand for.
     >
     > As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly
     > use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC.
     >
     > If you think these tools aren?t suitable for your workflow, that is
     > fine.  In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
     > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users.  ?Building a
     > community? should not imply giving up on essential freedoms.
     >
     > Thanks in advance,
     > Ludo?.
     
     
     the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
     threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very
     good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they
     don't know come up with these solutions (Me here).
     
     In my opinion the solution is attract attention in social networks,
     then get do a "gnu-rails" that mentioned here. And then resolve the
     Planet's issue. As we say in Spain: You can't make a tortilla without
     breaking eggs.  I understand that your opinions are morally more
     respectable than mine (No irony in this sentence, it is really what I
     think).  (irony #on) But in Spain it is customary to stay acquitted if
     you confess your sins.
     
     It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with  communication in
     social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's
     because his eyes are closed.


The English saying uses "cake" instead of "tortilla".  

Personally, I don't see why a project like Guile needs a presence on any social
network.  After-all, Guile is a technical project, not a social one.  On the
other hand, it is part of GNU, a project which aims to address a growing social
problem in the world today. 

I find social networks/forums awkward to use, and a rather inefficient way to get
help on technical matters, but I'm aware that others have different opinions.  So
if that is one of my eggs which has to get broken, in order to help bake this 
particular cake/tortilla then so be it.    However, if we have to break not only eggs,
but also destroy the freedom of the people to whom we hope to feed the cake, then
it would be better not to bake it at all.

So please start a social net group if you think it helps.  But use services, and
systems which respect the goals that GNU and Guile strive for.

J'


-- 
PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3 
fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285  A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3
See http://keys.gnupg.net or any PGP keyserver for public key.


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

> The English saying uses "cake" instead of "tortilla".
Thaanks :D

> Personally, I don't see why a project like Guile needs a presence on any social
> network.  After-all, Guile is a technical project, not a social one.  On the
> other hand, it is part of GNU, a project which aims to address a growing social
> problem in the world today.
>
> I find social networks/forums awkward to use, and a rather inefficient way to get
> help on technical matters, but I'm aware that others have different opinions.  So
> if that is one of my eggs which has to get broken, in order to help bake this
> particular cake/tortilla then so be it.    However, if we have to break not only eggs,
> but also destroy the freedom of the people to whom we hope to feed the cake, then
> it would be better not to bake it at all.

Honestly, if you do not see that social networks are essential to the
success of a project nowadays I'm sure you have more than 30 years. I
have 40 and I have not used social networking until + / - 2 years, but
it's amazing the amount of information/opinion is moving there. For
the forties this may not be a problem, but look where teenagers are:
watching their timeline on a android or apple. GNU Guile doesn't
capture attention of all those people, and if not remedied GNU Guile
will age. With all due respect Andy Wingo and Ludovic Courtes will not
live forever.
People that use Scheme is a minority, and that minority is largely
Racket. In my opinion not because it is better, neither because you
can do a gui or graphics more easily with it. In my opinion is because
they are handling the issue of social networks better.


> So please start a social net group if you think it helps.  But use services, and
> systems which respect the goals that GNU and Guile strive for.

The respectable term is relative: for some may not be respectable use
twitter that Andy Wingo uses. For others it may not be respectable use
this planet http://scheme.dk/planet/ that explicitly says "To see old
posts: Visit Google Reader" and recommended Ludovic Courtes.
Racketers or Gnomers (I think that Gnome is a GNU project) use Google+
and for some may not be respectable.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Mark H Weaver]

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> Honestly, if you do not see that social networks are essential to the
> success of a project nowadays I'm sure you have more than 30 years. I
> have 40 and I have not used social networking until + / - 2 years, but
> it's amazing the amount of information/opinion is moving there. For
> the forties this may not be a problem, but look where teenagers are:
> watching their timeline on a android or apple. GNU Guile doesn't
> capture attention of all those people, and if not remedied GNU Guile
> will age. With all due respect Andy Wingo and Ludovic Courtes will not
> live forever.

Even if what you say is true, we must still reject the centralized
social networking sites.  That issue is incomparably more important than
the popularity of GNU Guile.  It is no exaggeration to say that freedom
of thought is at stake.  Watch Eben Moglen's speech to understand why:

  http://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia

I would much rather work toward a future with freedom of thought but no
GNU Guile than a future with GNU Guile but without freedom of thought.

Please remember that the purpose of the GNU operating system (of which
Guile is one component) is to help achieve freedom for computer users.
It makes no sense to abandon freedom in order to help promote GNU.

     Mark

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Noah Lavine]

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Hello,

I don't entirely understand what everyone here wants, but there are reasons
besides company control to avoid proprietary networking sites like Google+.
Since it will never be the case that all Guilers have an account on Google+
(or Facebook, or whatever else), a group there could only ever include part
of the community. Especially in a community as small as Guile's, I'd like
to see a solution that includes everyone.

However, there clearly is a desire for some new forum for Guilers to talk
to each other. It appears, based on
https://www.google.com/search?q=make+a+blog+aggregator , that the software
to set a blog aggregator up is free (and Free). There's an LWN article on
how to set one up. There is also a WordPress plugin, hosted here:
http://feedwordpress.radgeek.com/ .

A wiki might also be useful. If so, let's agree to use the one at
libreplanet.org (or something similar), so that the Guile wiki notes will
all be in one place and can easily be found.

Thanks,
Noah


On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote:

> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes:
> > Honestly, if you do not see that social networks are essential to the
> > success of a project nowadays I'm sure you have more than 30 years. I
> > have 40 and I have not used social networking until + / - 2 years, but
> > it's amazing the amount of information/opinion is moving there. For
> > the forties this may not be a problem, but look where teenagers are:
> > watching their timeline on a android or apple. GNU Guile doesn't
> > capture attention of all those people, and if not remedied GNU Guile
> > will age. With all due respect Andy Wingo and Ludovic Courtes will not
> > live forever.
>
> Even if what you say is true, we must still reject the centralized
> social networking sites.  That issue is incomparably more important than
> the popularity of GNU Guile.  It is no exaggeration to say that freedom
> of thought is at stake.  Watch Eben Moglen's speech to understand why:
>
>
> http://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia
>
> I would much rather work toward a future with freedom of thought but no
> GNU Guile than a future with GNU Guile but without freedom of thought.
>
> Please remember that the purpose of the GNU operating system (of which
> Guile is one component) is to help achieve freedom for computer users.
> It makes no sense to abandon freedom in order to help promote GNU.
>
>      Mark
>
>

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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Noah Lavine <noah.b.lavine@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I don't entirely understand what everyone here wants, but there are reasons
> besides company control to avoid proprietary networking sites like Google+.
> Since it will never be the case that all Guilers have an account on Google+
> (or Facebook, or whatever else), a group there could only ever include part
> of the community. Especially in a community as small as Guile's, I'd like to
> see a solution that includes everyone.
>
> However, there clearly is a desire for some new forum for Guilers to talk to
> each other. It appears, based on
> https://www.google.com/search?q=make+a+blog+aggregator , that the software
> to set a blog aggregator up is free (and Free). There's an LWN article on
> how to set one up. There is also a WordPress plugin, hosted here:
> http://feedwordpress.radgeek.com/ .
>
> A wiki might also be useful. If so, let's agree to use the one at
> libreplanet.org (or something similar), so that the Guile wiki notes will
> all be in one place and can easily be found.
>
> Thanks,
> Noah


Yes, blog aggregator would improve official forums. It is a good idea.
But, as I said to Ludovic Courtès would lack the casual component of
social networks. As I said I will see if Diaspora works well tonight
and It has communities.

A wiki might also be useful, but in my opinion much less than the blog
aggregator, because GNU Guile manual is great. Much work is well done
there. Wiki would use for small details missing in manual, this for
example: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=guile.git;a=commitdiff;h=41a9e8829c1720da01f3bd471552688806478a51
 or examples for newbies. But that's a lot of work and it is better to
focus on making these improvements to the manual as Andy Wingo is
doing.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

According to I've been reading  Diaspora unfortunately does not have
the Communities feature. Also there is less people than identi.ca .
But it has also become clear that Diaspora (and I don't think anyone
can deny that Diaspora shares the same philosophy as GNU) uses
efficiently social networks: https://twitter.com/joindiaspora/ . Here
Diaspora project's director saying go away noob!:
https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/281348200932184064 (this does
not occur with Communities feature).

Diaspora uses Ruby, why? Because teenagers knows it. Why? Yukihiro
Matsumoto has used very well social networks:
https://twitter.com/yukihiro_matz https://twitter.com/matz_translated
. And Who won the FSF Award recently? GNU Guile?
http://www.fsf.org/news/2011-free-software-awards-announced  . In the
end the results are what count.

In my opinion I think it is very wrong the video that mentioned . Real
life doesn't work this way. Right now I'm going to keep google+
account. When Diaspora or other social network works well I'll change
there. I'll post showing this thread in which I think it is clear that
you are  right morally, but for practical reasons account keeps. Also
I will say always in Google+ that for  good, official and reliable GNU
Guile answers the right place are these forums.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[hellekin]

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On 12/19/2012 08:40 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> According to I've been reading  Diaspora unfortunately does not have
> the Communities feature.
>
*** Can you describe that functionality?

> I don't think anyone can deny that Diaspora shares the same philosophy as GNU
>
*** I didn't see any D* developer participate in important federation
meetings lately. Maybe Free Software Activists are not to their taste.

> Here Diaspora project's director saying go away noob!:
> https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/281348200932184064
>
*** What does that mean? This is lacking context.

> Diaspora uses Ruby, why? Because teenagers knows it.
>
*** Teenagers know it because it's a nice language to use. Given a
choice between PHP and Ruby, what would you choose? Teenagers know
Node.JS. Remember JavaScript 10 years ago, before Node and JQuery: it
was loathed. But now that people started understanding how to use it
(and thanks to the newer JS engines and standardization), it's become
hip again.

> Yukihiro Matsumoto has used very well social networks
> [...]
> Real life doesn't work this way. Right now I'm going to keep google+
> account. When Diaspora or other social network works
>
*** You keep using "social network" instead of "social network
services". You're confusing the two. The social network is formed by the
accumulation (over time) of human relationships. Social network
services, or "digital tools to support social networking", enhance the
possibilities of the social network, by making communication and
dissemination easier, or simply: possible, when the network is large enough.

In any case, you should realize that the social network of the Guile
project is already a reality, and that it does not use G+, mostly, as I
understand it, for philosophical reasons. Disclaimer: I'm new to this
project and mailing-list, so I cannot talk for them ; I'm just talking
from my point of view of free software activist, and social networking
experience, both theoretical and practical.

> I'll post showing this thread in which I think it is clear that
> you are  right morally
>
*** If you're intending to post anything from me on G+, please don't.
You may link to the mailing-list archive instead.

> I will say always in Google+ that for  good, official and reliable GNU
> Guile answers the right place are these forums.
> 
*** I respect your vision, but I think "doing it right" would imply
spending energy on making the existing environment better, rather than
deflecting people to commercial services. Let's hope that this can help
"recruiting" people who will help that former way.

One thing you could do is maintain a public G+ page on GNU Guile
pointing to the actual social network hangouts (I'm not talking of
Google's video service, but this mailing-list, etc.), and abstain from
posting "interesting contents" publicly there, nurturing the official
documents instead.

I still think that taking care of a GNU Guile group on LibrePlanet would
make all things much easier, by simply linking existing contents
(official documentation, blog articles, source code, etc.) in a way that
creates more sense to different audiences, including newbies.

I'm convinced that the work you're going to do on G+ would have
benefited LibrePlanet and GNU Guile much more than targeting a large
audience in a non-privacy-respectful, and proprietary environment such
as Google+. Note that it would be trivial to have automated status
updates from the LibrePlanet wiki to Twitter, via Identi.ca (i.e. to use
"a commercial broadcast service" as a mass medium, instead of a
conversational medium.)

==
hk


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

Sorry, I put the previous answer in half of the thread. A mistake.



On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:10 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> wrote:
> On 12/19/2012 08:40 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
>> According to I've been reading  Diaspora unfortunately does not have
>> the Communities feature.
>>
> *** Can you describe that functionality?

The "communities" of Google+. In one only account can talk many
people. For example in twitter neither can. If it was possible then I
would use twitter, not Google+.


>> I don't think anyone can deny that Diaspora shares the same philosophy as GNU
>>
> *** I didn't see any D* developer participate in important federation
> meetings lately. Maybe Free Software Activists are not to their taste.

If you say that Diaspora neither share philosophy GNU, I honestly do
not know who else you can say that if share philosophy GNU. Besides,
in these forums also recommended that I use it.

>> Here Diaspora project's director saying go away noob!:
>> https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/281348200932184064
>>
> *** What does that mean? This is lacking context.

It is the same that if I had appropriated this account:
https://twitter.com/gnuguile  and official GNU guile would like to use
later. This does not occur  With a "community" account.


>> Diaspora uses Ruby, why? Because teenagers knows it.
>>
> *** Teenagers know it because it's a nice language to use. Given a
> choice between PHP and Ruby, what would you choose? Teenagers know
> Node.JS. Remember JavaScript 10 years ago, before Node and JQuery: it
> was loathed. But now that people started understanding how to use it
> (and thanks to the newer JS engines and standardization), it's become
> hip again.

I did not say that Ruby isn't a nice language, although I like most
Scheme :D . I say that it has used very well social networks.
The same is Vala and C #, I'm not saying that C# is not better, it is.
But why was it so succesful? Books, documentation. Vala can't do that.
His power should be social network.

>> Yukihiro Matsumoto has used very well social networks
>> [...]

Award with Richard Stallman using social networks. is it not interesting? :D


>> Real life doesn't work this way. Right now I'm going to keep google+
>> account. When Diaspora or other social network works
>>
> *** You keep using "social network" instead of "social network
> services". You're confusing the two. The social network is formed by the
> accumulation (over time) of human relationships. Social network
> services, or "digital tools to support social networking", enhance the
> possibilities of the social network, by making communication and
> dissemination easier, or simply: possible, when the network is large enough.

In Spanish everyone understands "redes sociales". In Spanish your
"social network" would be "comunidad". But it's the same, you have
understood  perfectly what I mean.

> In any case, you should realize that the social network of the Guile
> project is already a reality, and that it does not use G+, mostly, as I
> understand it, for philosophical reasons. Disclaimer: I'm new to this
> project and mailing-list, so I cannot talk for them ; I'm just talking
> from my point of view of free software activist, and social networking
> experience, both theoretical and practical.

>> I'll post showing this thread in which I think it is clear that
>> you are  right morally
>>
> *** If you're intending to post anything from me on G+, please don't.
> You may link to the mailing-list archive instead.


I have already done that: the link , and I will always do that.


>> I will say always in Google+ that for  good, official and reliable GNU
>> Guile answers the right place are these forums.

> *** I respect your vision, but I think "doing it right" would imply
> spending energy on making the existing environment better, rather than
> deflecting people to commercial services. Let's hope that this can help
> "recruiting" people who will help that former way.

I can't spend more energy. I'm 40 years old, family and little money.
A paradise :D.


> One thing you could do is maintain a public G+ page on GNU Guile
> pointing to the actual social network hangouts (I'm not talking of
> Google's video service, but this mailing-list, etc.), and abstain from
> posting "interesting contents" publicly there, nurturing the official
> documents instead.

I want put the link to the official forums in a prominent position on
the page but I think that it isn't possible. If anyone knows a way
that mentioned it and I will do that.

The "interesting contents" of official forums will link it. My
"interesting contents" (coming from a newbie this is laughable) I'm
not sure but I think that I will do a blog and link to google+,
identi.ca and forum blogger account if it finally becomes.
Casual conversations if it is in identi.ca, in identi.ca (In a year no
one has spoken). If it is in google+, in google+.

Here I'm talking about myself. Rest of people in google+ I can't talk.
But +/- I suppose that the same.

> I still think that taking care of a GNU Guile group on LibrePlanet would
> make all things much easier, by simply linking existing contents
> (official documentation, blog articles, source code, etc.) in a way that
> creates more sense to different audiences, including newbies.
>
> I'm convinced that the work you're going to do on G+ would have
> benefited LibrePlanet and GNU Guile much more than targeting a large
> audience in a non-privacy-respectful, and proprietary environment such
> as Google+. Note that it would be trivial to have automated status
> updates from the LibrePlanet wiki to Twitter, via Identi.ca (i.e. to use
> "a commercial broadcast service" as a mass medium, instead of a
> conversational medium.)

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

Here a member of the FSF and he seems that  uses google+, indeed quite
efficiently: https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/283239470537510913/photo/1

GNU Hurd progresses.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
() Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:08:43 +0100

   Here a member of the FSF and he seems that  uses google+, [...]

Have you considered contacting Gregory Benison to get an account on:
<http://www.gcbhacks.dreamhosters.com/scheme-web-apps/schwordpress.cgi>
(a Guile-Scheme-driven web log)?

It is surely underdeveloped in comparison to the (other) established
services, so maybe that's something you could play with (and hack on)
concurrently w/ building community (newbies or otherwise).  After all,
the best-fit tools are the ones you see fit to craft.

Of course, i don't know how Gregory Benison compares against the (other)
established services regarding privacy and respecting user freedom, so
that's something you'd want to clarify up front.  FWIW, my experiences,
though few, have been generally positive.

Anyway, i think you would find this approach more satisfying, long term.
Believe me, i know how it feels to push against the tide.  :-D

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen ..................................... GPG key: 4C807502
.                  NB: ttn at glug dot org is not me                   .
.                 (and has not been since 2007 or so)                  .
.                        ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES                         .
........... please send technical questions to mailing lists ...........

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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
> () zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
> () Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:08:43 +0100
>
>    Here a member of the FSF and he seems that  uses google+, [...]
>
> Have you considered contacting Gregory Benison to get an account on:
> <http://www.gcbhacks.dreamhosters.com/scheme-web-apps/schwordpress.cgi>
> (a Guile-Scheme-driven web log)?
>
> It is surely underdeveloped in comparison to the (other) established
> services, so maybe that's something you could play with (and hack on)
> concurrently w/ building community (newbies or otherwise).  After all,
> the best-fit tools are the ones you see fit to craft.
>
> Of course, i don't know how Gregory Benison compares against the (other)
> established services regarding privacy and respecting user freedom, so
> that's something you'd want to clarify up front.  FWIW, my experiences,
> though few, have been generally positive.
>
> Anyway, i think you would find this approach more satisfying, long term.
> Believe me, i know how it feels to push against the tide.  :-D
>
> --
> Thien-Thi Nguyen ..................................... GPG key: 4C807502
> .                  NB: ttn at glug dot org is not me                   .
> .                 (and has not been since 2007 or so)                  .
> .                        ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES                         .
> ........... please send technical questions to mailing lists ...........


Thank you very much. I didn't know Schwordpress. It seems like a very
good option to create blogs. Try looking at the code. Right now notify
that site in guile account in identi.ca and in Google+. If I write a
blog I will try contact with him.

In any case, I don't think I push against the tide. I could be wrong,
but I I think quite people agrees with what I have said, but they
don't say because it seems a flamewar's noob. I also must thank
because everyone speak me with respect despite being a newbie and my
horrendous English.

I admire Stallman. How could a newbie not admire him?. I must also say
that if I knew before what happened to Richard Stallman in the Brazil
conference http://usemoslinux.blogspot.com/2012/12/el-dia-de-furia-de-richard-stallman-en.html
then I had not sent the previous message. I just found out it now. But
this only confirms what was said by Thomas Bushnell. In summary, the
GNU image in social networks is very bad, and it nowadays can not be
allowed.

Thank you very much anew.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

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() zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com>
() Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:49:23 +0100

   In any case, I don't think I push against the tide. 

And yet, you say:

   In summary, the GNU image in social networks is very bad, and it
   nowadays can not be allowed.

... which has the same sound, to my ears.  What people think and say
about GNU is the tide.  What you or i can do about it is almost nothing.
What you or i can do apart from it is almost infinite (until death :-D).
If we choose to do something apart from it that affects it, hey, bonus!

In sum, i am suggesting that if you play obliquely, your goals may be
attained more easily (and in a more fun way) than w/ direct engagement.

Why not let google+ alone, hack a few years elsewise, come back later
and see what you /haven't/ missed?  Two birds w/ one stone (two pigeons
w/ one bean, in italian, _______, in spanish, ...), like they say.

-- 
Thien-Thi Nguyen ..................................... GPG key: 4C807502
.                  NB: ttn at glug dot org is not me                   .
.                 (and has not been since 2007 or so)                  .
.                        ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES                         .
........... please send technical questions to mailing lists ...........

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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote:
> Two birds w/ one stone

In Spanish is the same "Matar dos pájaros de un tiro" . Probably that
phrase is universal :D.

There isn't problem because knowledge of noobs don't worth even a
slingshot. We are like candy birds:
http://leenzuydgeest.deviantart.com/art/Blue-wildebeest-213435651 .

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis:

> the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
> threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very
> good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they
> don't know come up with these solutions (Me here).

I’m not saying that you should implement one, I’m saying that you should
choose and promote one that addresses those concerns.

There’s Status.Net for small messages, and there are free “social
network” kind of things like Diaspora, though I don’t what their current
status is.  There may also be different kinds of tools we haven’t
mentioned, like wikis.

[...]

> It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with  communication in
> social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's
> because his eyes are closed.

You seem to amalgamate “social network” and those centralized,
privacy-threatening services.

The phrase “social networks” really describes real-world social
interactions.  There are many tools that can be used to reify social
networks on the net.  Hackers often like email, IRC, and blogs.  I
gather that nowadays people may have different preferences.

But whatever tool they choose, I think they must understand what impact
it has on their freedom and privacy.

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis:
>
>> the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
>> threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very
>> good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they
>> don't know come up with these solutions (Me here).
>
> I’m not saying that you should implement one, I’m saying that you should
> choose and promote one that addresses those concerns.
>
> There’s Status.Net for small messages, and there are free “social
> network” kind of things like Diaspora, though I don’t what their current
> status is.  There may also be different kinds of tools we haven’t
> mentioned, like wikis.

Diaspora  was a good option. But I think that it is practically dead.I
can not guarantee it.
I'll try to see. If someone knows it is working well please comment it.

>> It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with  communication in
>> social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's
>> because his eyes are closed.
>
> You seem to amalgamate “social network” and those centralized,
> privacy-threatening services.
>
> The phrase “social networks” really describes real-world social
> interactions.  There are many tools that can be used to reify social
> networks on the net.  Hackers often like email, IRC, and blogs.  I
> gather that nowadays people may have different preferences.
>
> But whatever tool they choose, I think they must understand what impact
> it has on their freedom and privacy.
>
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Nala Ginrut]

On Tue, 2012-12-18 at 09:39 +0100, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > As others wrote, please don’t advertise this service here.  This one and
> > similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in
> > opposition with what we stand for.
> >
> > As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly
> > use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC.
> >
> > If you think these tools aren’t suitable for your workflow, that is
> > fine.  In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
> > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users.  “Building a
> > community” should not imply giving up on essential freedoms.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Ludo’.
> 
> 
> the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a
> threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very
> good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they
> don't know come up with these solutions (Me here).
> 
> In my opinion the solution is attract attention in social networks,
> then get do a "gnu-rails" that mentioned here. And then resolve the
> Planet's issue. As we say in Spain: You can't make a tortilla without
> breaking eggs.  I understand that your opinions are morally more
> respectable than mine (No irony in this sentence, it is really what I
> think).  (irony #on) But in Spain it is customary to stay acquitted if
> you confess your sins.
> 

To my belief, confess sins then reform at once, which is the only way to
make people stay acquitted.

> It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with  communication in
> social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's
> because his eyes are closed.
> 

Take it easy, Guile doesn't against social-networks, but the wrong
policy for propitiatory/privacy. 
You mentioned Racket users choose G+, but Racket is not GNU Racket,
right?

PS: I used to use G+, but I delete it from my smartphone wrathfully when
I realize it uploaded many of my photos without any mention. 
Nowadays, I have to care about anything, especially software service.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Nala Ginrut <nalaginrut@gmail.com> wrote:
> To my belief, confess sins then reform at once, which is the only way to
> make people stay acquitted.

In Spain as good Catholics you can confess, reoffend and turn to
confess. No problem. If it finally makes gnu-rails or Guile Planet,
penance would be accomplished.


> Take it easy, Guile doesn't against social-networks, but the wrong
> policy for propitiatory/privacy.
> You mentioned Racket users choose G+, but Racket is not GNU Racket,
> right?
>
> PS: I used to use G+, but I delete it from my smartphone wrathfully when
> I realize it uploaded many of my photos without any mention.
> Nowadays, I have to care about anything, especially software service.

I did not say that Guile is against social-networks. I say that Guile
isn't using social networks and it is a mistake. And that's a fact.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[hellekin]

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On 12/18/2012 07:35 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> 
> I did not say that Guile is against social-networks. I say that Guile
> isn't using social networks and it is a mistake. And that's a fact.
>
*** Ludovic said it well. Let me reiterate:

"Some people conflate social networks, which are the aggregate of
relationships that humans have, with online social network services such
as Facebook and, arguably, G+" -- Howard Rheingold

I used to post this on Google+, when I had a Google account, that is,
before they changed their privacy policy to aggregate all their services
under a single "Real Name" (TM?)

If you're not aware of that, some people were quite pissed to discover
that their "business handle" was mixed with their "personal handle" when
that privacy policy entered in effect. Centralized social network
services have an increasing tendency toward surveillance ; no, wait:
that's their business model. They trade user profiles to marketers, and
most, give them away to govern-mental agencies.

More importantly, in a world of "the rule of law", where freedom of
expression is (at least in the USA) protected by the Constitution, these
services offer to their "business customers" an interface that allow
them to entirely bypass Constitutional law, and censor whatever content
they deem inappropriate, where they should, if that was posted in the
public space, go to court, and win there.

If you really like to use G+ for the sake of the audience (why not
Facebook, then?), you could as well post short messages linking to blog
articles or wiki pages *in the public space*, so that you take advantage
of both worlds: contents in the public space, protected under a free
documentation license, and use centralized social networking services
such as Google+, Twitter, and Facebook, as mass-media, for announcement.

==
hk


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> wrote:

> If you're not aware of that, some people were quite pissed to discover
> that their "business handle" was mixed with their "personal handle" when
> that privacy policy entered in effect. Centralized social network
> services have an increasing tendency toward surveillance ; no, wait:
> that's their business model. They trade user profiles to marketers, and
> most, give them away to govern-mental agencies.
>
> More importantly, in a world of "the rule of law", where freedom of
> expression is (at least in the USA) protected by the Constitution, these
> services offer to their "business customers" an interface that allow
> them to entirely bypass Constitutional law, and censor whatever content
> they deem inappropriate, where they should, if that was posted in the
> public space, go to court, and win there.
>
> If you really like to use G+ for the sake of the audience (why not
> Facebook, then?), you could as well post short messages linking to blog
> articles or wiki pages *in the public space*, so that you take advantage
> of both worlds: contents in the public space, protected under a free
> documentation license, and use centralized social networking services
> such as Google+, Twitter, and Facebook, as mass-media, for announcement.

I do not consider Facebook  neither more nor less evil than Google+
because I don't know well Facebook. Simply I've never used it because
I believe that the profile of the people of Facebook is chatting with
friends (I can be wrong).

Neither I wrote in Google+ before. I just used twitter and  identi.ca .

why have I opened the account in google+ then? Because they have just
created Communities. For a newbie is too presumptuous create an
account guile GNU. I would not do this: https://twitter.com/gnuguile
even if the account was free, because I have no sufficient knowledge
to manage that account. It would be too honor :D. Another thing is
that I think  Guilers are wrong not managing an account like that.

With google+'s account is different. This is not an honor because it
is supposed to be community and then anyone can talk. I've just been
faster (or nobody wanted to open it :D) The administration in my
opinion in this case is totally different, it just is restricted to
the rules of polite behavior. I think I can do it although probably
other person would do it better  because as you see I'm not exactly a
phenomenon with English. If someone wants it would be perfect.

I have to see if Diaspora has communities and it works well. Then I
would open an account there.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[hellekin]

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On 12/18/2012 10:08 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> 
> 
> Facebook, Google+, Twitter.
> 
> I think Guilers are wrong not managing an account like that.
> 
> With google+'s account is different.
> 
*** No it's not. Anyone can create an account anywhere, and then grant
it to some authority figure, or share admin privilege with other people
in a community. The question is not who is administering the account,
but what does it imply for users to use that service. In any and all
these cases, you're deflecting public activity (free software can be
understood as a common good) to a private space (a privately-owned
company, that DO NOT respect user's privacy to any acceptable level.)

You're talking about convenience, while you should be thinking about
freedom. You should be asking yourself: if I am free to represent or
promote a free software on private ground, does that benefit others'
freedom, or does that impede their freedom? Is that allowing users to
participate without constraint? Is that nurturing the community?

Think carefully. Attracting a mass of users would probably benefit the
community, but moving the conversation to private grounds, where a
private for-profit company can claim copyright on your contributions,
and will track user behavior, certainly won't.

That has nothing to do with being a newbie, or reaching a large "social
network" (remember: the social network is made of human relationships,
not corporate goodies), or confusing community and mass-media.

I would, personally, accept the use of such services for
*announcements*, that link to free, non-tracking, community-operated
sites, such as this mailing-list, the IRC channel, Andi Wingo's blog,
etc. I know that rms would simply say something in the lines: these
services are tracking their users, and they're not free software, so
don't use them.

> I have to see if Diaspora has communities and it works well. Then I
> would open an account there.
>
*** You could as well setup a Lorea seed, a StatusNet instance, a
pump.io, or a Mediawiki. Oh, wait: LibrePlanet *is* a MediaWiki. (hint,
hint)

That said, I think you've got a point in saying that Guile would benefit
from more attention. But I don't see *marketing* as a way to achieve it.
Instead, the community should provide working examples of code that
works, such as The Gimp, etc. and expose the differentiating features of
Guile vs. other approaches. GNU projects' pages are usually terse and
the Guile one is no exception.

If you're so inclined, you could explain why you're choosing Guile over
another solution, how you got started, what things were enlightening,
and what others were difficult to understand, or counter-intuitive.
Replying only this set of questions would make a terrific wiki page, and
probably encourage more experienced Guile developers to help you on your
learning path. Truth is, beyond the Blub Paradox[1], there's another
one: the more experienced one becomes at programming, the more one tends
to forget about how difficult it was to get there.

==
hk

[1] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html (lookup "The Blub Paradox")


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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 2:59 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> wrote:
> On 12/18/2012 10:08 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
>>
>>
>> Facebook, Google+, Twitter.
>>
>> I think Guilers are wrong not managing an account like that.
>>
>> With google+'s account is different.
>>
> *** No it's not. Anyone can create an account anywhere, and then grant
> it to some authority figure, or share admin privilege with other people
> in a community. The question is not who is administering the account,
> but what does it imply for users to use that service. In any and all
> these cases, you're deflecting public activity (free software can be
> understood as a common good) to a private space (a privately-owned
> company, that DO NOT respect user's privacy to any acceptable level.)
>
> You're talking about convenience, while you should be thinking about
> freedom. You should be asking yourself: if I am free to represent or
> promote a free software on private ground, does that benefit others'
> freedom, or does that impede their freedom? Is that allowing users to
> participate without constraint? Is that nurturing the community?
>
> Think carefully. Attracting a mass of users would probably benefit the
> community, but moving the conversation to private grounds, where a
> private for-profit company can claim copyright on your contributions,
> and will track user behavior, certainly won't.
>
> That has nothing to do with being a newbie, or reaching a large "social
> network" (remember: the social network is made of human relationships,
> not corporate goodies), or confusing community and mass-media.
>
> I would, personally, accept the use of such services for
> *announcements*, that link to free, non-tracking, community-operated
> sites, such as this mailing-list, the IRC channel, Andi Wingo's blog,
> etc. I know that rms would simply say something in the lines: these
> services are tracking their users, and they're not free software, so
> don't use them.
>

"With google+'s account is different" meant only to pretentiousness
newbie level. Obviously thinking about freedom problem is the same if
account is community or isn't. I will see Diaspora tonight or if
someone want see it before it's perfect.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[David Thompson]

On 12/16/2012 07:23 PM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
> I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
> https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es
>
Why not make a Guile subreddit on reddit.com? Reddit is a *very* popular 
site and (as far as I know) doesn't have the issues that G+ has. I see 
many of the FSF employees and other free software developers posting to 
r/linux and r/freesoftware.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:36 AM, David Thompson
<dthompson2@worcester.edu> wrote:
> On 12/16/2012 07:23 PM, zx spectrumgomas wrote:
>>
>> I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community!
>> https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es
>>
> Why not make a Guile subreddit on reddit.com? Reddit is a *very* popular
> site and (as far as I know) doesn't have the issues that G+ has. I see many
> of the FSF employees and other free software developers posting to r/linux
> and r/freesoftware.


In my opinion this option is similar to blog's aggregator . It's a
good idea but it lacks casual component of social networks. I think
blog's aggregator is better idea.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Andy Wingo]

Hi,

I'm catching up with mail and thought you might be interested in my
thoughts.  They're just my thoughts, the thoughts of one Guile hacker,
and I don't represent Guile with them -- so please do make up your own
minds.

I basically agree with Ludo and Mark that proprietary, centralized
social networks are bad for society, and are dangerous because they are
attractive.

I agree with Zx that there are many ways that Guile could be better as a
community -- especially among new and younger Guilers, many of whom have
"come of age" in an internet sense on social networks.

I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on
proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but
I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there.
Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on
these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed.

If there are community needs that are not being met right now, we should
try to identify them and find solutions.  Is a blog aggregator the
thing, or is it something else?  I liked the idea of a Guile subreddit,
though I don't know if it could get enough interest.

Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow?

Whatever we do, I think we should try to point people to the "primary"
vehicles of discussion: the mailing lists and the IRC channel.

Again, these are just opinions of one guy, take them as you will :)

Cheers,

Andy
-- 
http://wingolog.org/

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm catching up with mail and thought you might be interested in my
> thoughts.  They're just my thoughts, the thoughts of one Guile hacker,
> and I don't represent Guile with them -- so please do make up your own
> minds.
>
> I basically agree with Ludo and Mark that proprietary, centralized
> social networks are bad for society, and are dangerous because they are
> attractive.
>
> I agree with Zx that there are many ways that Guile could be better as a
> community -- especially among new and younger Guilers, many of whom have
> "come of age" in an internet sense on social networks.
>
> I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on
> proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but
> I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there.
> Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on
> these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed.
>
> If there are community needs that are not being met right now, we should
> try to identify them and find solutions.  Is a blog aggregator the
> thing, or is it something else?  I liked the idea of a Guile subreddit,
> though I don't know if it could get enough interest.
>
> Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow?
>
> Whatever we do, I think we should try to point people to the "primary"
> vehicles of discussion: the mailing lists and the IRC channel.
>
> Again, these are just opinions of one guy, take them as you will :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
> --
> http://wingolog.org/

I agree entirely with your words.

I wish engage newbie guilers (as me) who are already on proprietary
social networks and I, too, think best solution is that someone manage
accounts for Guile on these services and link them up to repost
things. I think that repost things should be from a blog aggregator
that should be created in www.gnu.org/software/guile/community.html .

Conversations and questions say explicitly that must be in official
Guile mailing lists (or subreddit?)

As I said previously I created google+ community because I thought
that it was the only unpretentious way for a noob. I agree that it is
best solution as explained above.

In summary, I think that some guile maintainer would have to create
the blog aggregator and accounts should be created in identi.ca
(already done), twitter (occupied account, it should be "GNU Guile
begginers"), google+ and subreddit GNU Guile (I don't know but there
is strong schemers community www.reddit.com/r/scheme (Read there
Scheme implementations: /r/Racket only) .

If someone expert Guiler wants to do this work it's perfect. If nobody
wants to waste time then I can open accounts (passwords be sent to
Guile maintainer) and manage it because I only would have to put links
of blog agreggator and if some newbie guiler asks something I only
would have to say: "Conversations and questions in official mailing
lists, please" and for this I don't need MIT PhD. Even as a newbie
forty years old I think I can do it.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[Nikita Karetnikov]

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Hi,

This thread misses the point.  Because there are two separate issues:

1. Is it OK to use non-free and centralized services?

I'm not going to explain why it's not OK in detail.  But I'd like to
point out that if you use such a service, you encourage others to do
the same.

Here is an example:

> I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on
> proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but
> I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there.
> Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on
> these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed.

It's hard to change old habits that's why there /will/ be a community.
Instead of discussing Guile there, we should explain why it's not
ethical to use such networks.

2. How to promote Guile.

It's important to identify why you want to promote Guile.  For instance,
if you want to educate newcomers, you can write a howto or improve the
manual.  Then you can share your work using ethical services and start a
discussion.

Nikita

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Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 3:00 AM, Nikita Karetnikov
<nikita@karetnikov.org> wrote:

> 1. Is it OK to use non-free and centralized services?

In my opinion yes because you are right morally, but you can't make a
cake without breaking eggs:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/2012-12/msg00071.html


> I'm not going to explain why it's not OK in detail.  But I'd like to
> point out that if you use such a service, you encourage others to do
> the same.

> Here is an example:

	> I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on
	> proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but
	> I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there.
	> Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on
	> these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed.

I think that Andy Wingo's solution is ideal because it is a compromise
between those who are using  and not. And frankly, historically even
among GNU Guile maintainers seems to be a division of opinion:

Tom Lord -> Account not found
Jim Blandy -> Account not found
Maciej Stachowiak -> https://twitter.com/othermaciej
Mikael Djurfeldt -> https://plus.google.com/106121839601553652922/posts
Marius Vollmer -> https://plus.google.com/115061698758013340688/posts
Ludovic Courtès -> For his comments on the thread it is clear that he
is totally against the use of non-free and centralized services.
Neil Jerram -> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Neil/Jerram
Andy Wingo -> https://twitter.com/andywingo

Certainly, Vice President of Engineering and Products at Facebook ,
Greg Badros could also be Guile
maintainer:http://www.sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-11/msg00214.html
http://www.linkedin.com/in/badros


> It's hard to change old habits that's why there /will/ be a community.
> Instead of discussing Guile there, we should explain why it's not
> ethical to use such networks.

In this you have a point, but if the account is used well, kind of
announcement-oriented way, it can not encourage it. For example,
https://twitter.com/sflc .

> 2. How to promote Guile.

> It's important to identify why you want to promote Guile.  For instance,
> if you want to educate newcomers, you can write a howto or improve the
> manual.  Then you can share your work using ethical services and start a
> discussion.

Overwhelming majority of teenagers newcomers will not find this
documentation. I've been talking with people in social networks 30
years old who are studying haskell, clojure, racket ... and neither
knew existed GNU Guile. For example Stallman when asked in interviews
what their preferred language he says "Lisp", and no mention  GNU
Guile. He never does it, a very clear mistake.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

My case may be a good example. From the nearly 30 years old I have
moved in Gnome circles (GNU in this environment is barely mentioned,
or it is metioned that way
http://soyeahdjango.com/post/40190256460/me-when-someone-uses-flask )
, I went to a couple of conferences of Stallman and I ate with him:
http://www.galpon.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=744&g2_serialNumber=3
. And  it turns out that I knew of the existence of GNU Guile by one
person in  twitter and pure chance 2 years ago. Forty years old. I
know it is laughable but it is true.

Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+)

[hellekin (GNU Consensus)]

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On 01/13/2013 08:33 AM, Andy Wingo wrote:
> 
> Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow?
>
*** I think Guile's role in the GNU operating system is understated.

It would be nice to provide a somewhat short page that describes, if
possible visually, where Guile sits in the GNU OS, and a basic
introduction on how to get started with extending one's program with
Guile. Most of the contents of this introductory page would certainly
come from existing documentation.

The idea would be to make Guile a more visible element of the GNU, to
raise developer awareness about it. I'd be happy to work with some of
you Guile maintainers to define such a page.

I'm not sure *where* such a page would best appear. It could sit in the
existing Guile's web repository, and be linked from the gnu.org
homepage. It could also become part of some new "Free Software Developer
Guide" that describes the steps to create a program from scratch, or
integrate an existing program in the GNU. I'm not aware of any such
documentation that clarifies the specificities of the GNU project
regarding program structure; I know there is documentation scattered
around many manuals, but not a single, quite short introduction that
would give developers an overview of the specificities of GNU packages,
and the consistency of the system.

==
hk


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Re: Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+)

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hi,

"hellekin (GNU Consensus)" <hellekin@gnu.org> skribis:

> GNU. I'm not aware of any such
> documentation that clarifies the specificities of the GNU project
> regarding program structure; I know there is documentation scattered
> around many manuals, but not a single, quite short introduction that
> would give developers an overview of the specificities of GNU packages,
> and the consistency of the system.

This page provides background info on the intended smallest common
denominator of GNU packages:

  http://www.gnu.org/help/evaluation.html#whatmeans

Ludo’.

Re: GNU Guile community in google+

[zx spectrumgomas]

On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm catching up with mail and thought you might be interested in my
> thoughts.  They're just my thoughts, the thoughts of one Guile hacker,
> and I don't represent Guile with them -- so please do make up your own
> minds.
>
> I basically agree with Ludo and Mark that proprietary, centralized
> social networks are bad for society, and are dangerous because they are
> attractive.
>
> I agree with Zx that there are many ways that Guile could be better as a
> community -- especially among new and younger Guilers, many of whom have
> "come of age" in an internet sense on social networks.
>
> I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on
> proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but
> I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there.
> Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on
> these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed.
>
> If there are community needs that are not being met right now, we should
> try to identify them and find solutions.  Is a blog aggregator the
> thing, or is it something else?  I liked the idea of a Guile subreddit,
> though I don't know if it could get enough interest.
>
> Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow?
>
> Whatever we do, I think we should try to point people to the "primary"
> vehicles of discussion: the mailing lists and the IRC channel.
>
> Again, these are just opinions of one guy, take them as you will :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
> --
> http://wingolog.org/

I agree entirely with your words.

I wish engage newbie guilers (as me) who are already on proprietary
social networks and I, too, think best solution is that someone manage
accounts for Guile on these services and link them up to repost
things. I think that repost things should be from a blog aggregator
that should be created in www.gnu.org/software/guile/community.html .

Conversations and questions say explicitly that must be in official
Guile IRC, mailing lists (or subreddit?)

As I said previously I created google+ community because I thought
that it was the only unpretentious way for a noob. I agree that it is
best solution as explained above.

In summary, I think that some guile maintainer would have to create
the blog aggregator and accounts should be created in identi.ca
(already done), twitter (occupied account, it should be "GNU Guile
begginers"), google+ and subreddit GNU Guile (I don't know but there
is strong schemers community www.reddit.com/r/scheme (Read there
Scheme implementations: /r/Racket only) .

If someone expert Guiler wants to do this work it's perfect. If nobody
wants to waste time then I can open accounts (passwords be sent to
Guile maintainer) and manage it because I only would have to put links
of blog agreggator and if some newbie guiler asks something I only
would have to say: "Conversations in IRC and questions in official mailing
lists, please" and for this I don't need MIT PhD. Even as a newbie
forty years old I think I can do it.