From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mikael Djurfeldt Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Newbie thoughts on Guile Hall + Guix Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 14:14:15 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87iltt846s.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87v8xsq0zl.fsf@dustycloud.org> Reply-To: mikael@djurfeldt.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38578"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: guile-user To: =?UTF-8?Q?Aleix_Conchillo_Flaqu=C3=A9?= Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 06 14:15:35 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nGhOB-0009rn-CM for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 14:15:35 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53574 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGhO9-0003K3-M7 for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:15:33 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:47576) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGhNN-0003Gq-Vk for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:14:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ua1-f45.google.com ([209.85.222.45]:37541) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGhNK-0001nN-48 for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 08:14:45 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ua1-f45.google.com with SMTP id 103so5129067uag.4 for ; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 05:14:26 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9Qvbp2BJYb6LRl7deZVl31m6ADaxBPlZtjtTVLzJvqo=; b=eNQEvtYHfXY4mFPvpBi0vii0h/gepUH6YHfLE0AL3VXfiVHBppOKC9XqQ/5tMmrKAD JByf8yguDeqGw8nGUL64/SLWxn84rZks5CeitnqYdy+VfKWDHZVpI+KxFswYv8H0ck6X SVtLZ5TYy2alir+8EvKJI4u5bVxbewZ2IWl1PfQWd6KTVQtpfQdzmcfBf1LgK4BZn5/h TJCtYqh1zAhDaxH71roQAlM1fxWRRBxX2g8Epu9w36oUkj61s4OiAxC9szCZtn7mpL2v kVGwUetrnUnVtrhpVn+VR6k4e13PbS8zgdYEZRGuzGvkpUElcYGfJEyTEuXRS6m/F6ZU 9WGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532xaxk9HyGjVhhjDZFJik2tBZFMvPlNMWsfNaFMNIM877IpUKII v84CVKqFUy6bwjLLb5EWeaVmquXBAhwznzJ47zc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw9XPup8GiLgj/cvI/o8HqEN7j99fxtCzNPno/PJ7airQZJyImqPseS9NrRjz6+sRPEXYB/BsWV6jo91R6ToF8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:50a2:: with SMTP id bl34mr3331428vsb.30.1644153266116; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 05:14:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.222.45; envelope-from=mdjurfeldt@gmail.com; helo=mail-ua1-f45.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.249, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18005 Archived-At: I also think that there is a need for something light-weight and cross platform. I think, e.g., that PyPI is one of the main reasons for the success of Python and that the lack of something in that direction is holding Guile back. Even though Guix is a great project, I can think of many instances where you would like to use Guile packages but would hesitate to install Guix, or simply can't. Maybe it is possible to do it in a way that integrates well with Guix, e.g. such that the light-weight packages would automatically also be Guix packages? I'm not sure that "light-weight" should mean pure scheme, though, since that would exclude things dependent upon external libraries, like NumPy. After all, one of the roles of Guile is to be an embedded language. So, the question is if it would be possible to use aspects of Guix and Hall---to refactor things, perhaps akin to the peeling off that Christine is talking about? Maybe with some extra support for the non-Guix case such that the package would work both within snd outside of Guix? Am I crazy? Best regards, Mikael Den s=C3=B6n 6 feb. 2022 05:54Aleix Conchillo Flaqu=C3=A9 skrev: > I will have to disagree on this one. Not about Guix being great :-). I > believe a simple, lightweight, integrated and cross platform package > manager for Guile would be fantastic. > > For reasons that don't matter right now I have been using macOS for the > past two years and I wish I had a package manager. Since I didn't have on= e > I created Guile Homebrew which I'm probably the only one using. However, = I > would love to have something like other languages have as jao and Zelphir > suggest. It is true that Guix would solve the reproducibility issue, but > installing Guix and having a completely separate system of libraries just > to write some project is overkill, at least for me. Maybe it makes sense > for some specific projects but for most of the things that people work on= I > would say it probably doesn't. Plus, it doesn't work on macOS but that's > another story. > > Speaking about package managers for Guile, some might remember about > Guildhall (https://github.com/ijp/guildhall), maybe it's waiting there > for someone to pick it up. > > Aleix > > On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 4:47 PM Christine Lemmer-Webber < > cwebber@dustycloud.org> wrote: > >> IMO, we have, that, and it is Guix. I'm actually quite happy about >> that. :) >> >> Specific-language-package-repos have caused a lot of the mess we're >> currently in; in an unexpected way, it's hurt user freedom a lot, >> because mixing these is so hard that software which might be otherwise >> reproducible and usable by everyone becomes only deployable by "expert" >> devops teams deploying ad-hoc container black boxes who are themselves >> very overloaded and have a hard time keeping on top of what's going on. >> >> Guix is great. I'd love Guix to become the universal package repository >> for all FOSS languages. :) >> >> - Christine >> >> Mikael Djurfeldt writes: >> >> > It would also be nice if we could have a Guile package repository. >> > >> > Den l=C3=B6r 5 feb. 2022 21:11Christine Lemmer-Webber < >> cwebber@dustycloud.org> skrev: >> > >> > Hello! >> > >> > It's been a while since Guile was my main hacking environment; I've >> been >> > returning to it, and one of the nicest things to change about its >> > ecosystem is the presence of Guile Hall. >> > >> > I really, really like Guile Hall. A lot! I think it has room to gro= w >> > but it fills a clearly missing piece of the Guile ecosystem while doi= ng >> > it in the best way possible: making itself explicitly compatible with >> > Guix. >> > >> > I thought I'd write down some impressions while everything is fresh. >> > >> > - Its ability to make an autotools-compatible tarball, but without m= e >> > needing to think about autotools at all, is a real delight. >> > >> > - Its test suite stuff is also really nice. >> > >> > - I found myself surprised that hall.scm is "just data", instead of >> > taking the more guix'y approach of being code that actually builds= a >> > datastucture. I'm not sure what the goal of this is; there can be >> > reasons to take that approach but I'm not sure what it is here? >> > My assumption is that the main reason is so that "hall scan" can >> > correctly read and then modify and spit out another file, but I'm >> > not sure. >> > >> > - What I would actually *really* like would be for the Hall package >> > definition structure to be a wrapper *around* the Guix package >> > structure. Then the guix.scm would be really simple: it could jus= t >> > "peel off" the outer struct. If I wanted to do some smart >> > modifications of things from there maybe I could. I dunno, >> something >> > like this. >> > >> > - "hall scan" is really cool, but I kind of wish I didn't need to us= e >> > it. I'd rather not keep track of any of this stuff at all. >> > I'd be happy just pointing some code at a directory and say "snarf >> > up all the .scm files you see therein!" >> > >> > - I'm currently writing a manual starting in a .org file that's then >> > converted into a .texi file. I'd prefer if I could find an >> > entrypoint to insert this into the compilation workflow: a pre-ste= p >> > to the docs compilation that generates the .texi file *from* my >> > .org file. >> > >> > - On that note, it strikes me that Hall's integration with autotools >> > is great because it means that existing distros don't need to be >> > aware of Guile *or* Guix. But it also means that Hall probably ha= s >> > all of the information that it could do all the steps that autocon= f >> > and automake do too. That might be interesting to see that. >> > >> > Anyway, just some thoughts. Making Guile packages is already much le= ss >> > intimidating now thanks to Hall's work. Thank you for it! >> > >> > - Christine >> >> >>