From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Blake Shaw Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Newbie thoughts on Guile Hall + Guix Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 23:13:28 +0700 Message-ID: <87zgn1e3ly.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36101"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Zelphir Kaltstahl , guile-user@gnu.org To: adriano Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 08 18:16:10 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nHU65-0009Dm-Qf for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 18:16:10 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:36248 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHU64-0001L5-CH for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 12:16:08 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:60540) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHT9u-0007wh-Ir for guile-user@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 11:16:05 -0500 Original-Received: from out2.migadu.com ([188.165.223.204]:32722) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHT9p-00015b-W1 for guile-user@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 11:16:01 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nonconstructivism.com; s=key1; t=1644336956; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oHdQO7FRCbSKEXqkuZMqQkdYGbkdSnLzHaywPlveNA8=; b=kzhNeiBi7o3tCtSgx2ULS1kH1y7nDjucfVrhv9M007b/QzopLsNCEK7QwyevexvhJmV6gw 5wQqzNEKRDDI+zPfCHCayFZ48O5xYWIzepIfryyKLcLeA8PWxGQ/kDSyiuwQpLqH/dxWlM SKyBndXr4wmdMDNqRLc9QT5v0Ra4/t4= Gcc: nnimap+imap.migadu.de:sent.2022 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: nonconstructivism.com Received-SPF: pass client-ip=188.165.223.204; envelope-from=blake@nonconstructivism.com; helo=out2.migadu.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18037 Archived-At: adriano writes: > Just don't > That stuff is too low level for human beings > [...] > Anyway, I feel your frustration, I've been there myself > > Actually I've been there with Guile more than with Guix > > But still I feel you > > I hope this message of mine can sooth your frustration, to some extent > Wasn't intended for me, but I found it soothing! Somewhat off topic, but I feel like briefly relating these types of sentiment could even be useful to interject in within the Guix docs at times. There are many points of docs where the sales pitch bleeds into points far past the point of sale, so to speak. There are lots of "Guix makes this easy by x y z" deep in the docs, but the longer I've been in the community the more I've seen long time contributors relate that there are lots of points of frustration around certain things that may be called easy in the docs. If you're frustrated, and someone is there telling you what you're confused about this is simple and easy, that can come across as rubbing salt in wounds. While I share the enthusiasm, and I realize how much Guix eases things compared to traditional methods, it has been de-motivating for me at times. On the other hand, I think briefly relating, for example, "Depending on the complexity of a package, packagers at times will be exposed to low-level details that aren't traditionally meant for humans. This can be a genuinely frustrating experience..." becomes encouraging. Hope that makes sense, just food for thought! We could all use a pat on the back at times, especially given the human-ness of a project like guix that is waivers between the social and solitary :) -- “In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”