From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ricardo Wurmus Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Newbie thoughts on Guile Hall + Guix Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 15:03:25 +0100 Message-ID: <87tudc140c.fsf@elephly.net> References: <87iltt846s.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87v8xsq0zl.fsf@dustycloud.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17570"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.6.10; emacs 27.2 Cc: guile-user@gnu.org To: mikael@djurfeldt.com Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 06 15:09:43 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nGiEY-0004OB-2c for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 15:09:42 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34560 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGiEW-0006aT-Nl for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 09:09:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:55978) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGiE0-0006YD-Po for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 09:09:09 -0500 Original-Received: from sender4-of-o51.zoho.com ([136.143.188.51]:21133) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nGiDv-0001eS-B8 for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Feb 2022 09:09:08 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1644156540; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=NgVRttEhDSB+Crw6vvqtzA9/Bm3pC1LlHi3v9BPRUdmilwn86PaRydqy9zFHcqKW6blin4azoha/qTErRJusKmEhll/cU8YAP9IXdMNU+dUDBk7u5I16fYpD7dFZyONgPf7Og1S92R38H5EFgfTttaPq9rqcJ6q5x0lZIuNtonQ= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1644156540; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=J2P/O8b8RbIfY3EpFPwbYPLikxkxcDcmr1asua6tedc=; b=RPuDgdpzTGAC187aMiMKfIkrIUptee1yxiLBI4j5NzHOI6WN8MPKU0f4DqidFTnR+kZFeMZpYZNQpI9sNk1FOd/e+N+Jyo760UJR3XlLsKxXCK/4YxM9l7r28YAKkUxqHUy4QZhsG8IlKMaAws/opzGmZbrf87RrWYzKpVJGKnU= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@elephly.net; dmarc=pass header.from= DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1644156540; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@elephly.net; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=J2P/O8b8RbIfY3EpFPwbYPLikxkxcDcmr1asua6tedc=; b=e8SFdYeWenhcIerCW87dLJThSDcjfPl6bCLRwfd+ltFGIDAq6DROIRHC/ugyXWc/ xwGUFYPuVuktF9Ct9l4K5bp6AF9ycAQ9ikBzqAhcpuKf+7lfb+HqYkg6xS0iWlOcPX/ 7Yv04nFekuAuqiCu7vVsW8YBY9sEf/GP1ZMEiHnw= Original-Received: from localhost (p508e89a3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.142.137.163]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1644156535115379.23676739323344; Sun, 6 Feb 2022 06:08:55 -0800 (PST) In-reply-to: X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC X-ZohoMailClient: External Received-SPF: pass client-ip=136.143.188.51; envelope-from=rekado@elephly.net; helo=sender4-of-o51.zoho.com X-Spam_score_int: -30 X-Spam_score: -3.1 X-Spam_bar: --- X-Spam_report: (-3.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H5=-1, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01, T_SPF_TEMPERROR=0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18007 Archived-At: Mikael Djurfeldt writes: > I also think that there is a need for something light-weight and cross > platform. I think, e.g., that PyPI is one of the main reasons for the > success of Python and that the lack of something in that direction is > holding Guile back. PyPI is a good example for the kind of problems that all language package managers end up having. Language package managers have no way of clearly expressing dependencies that are not written in the target language. This happens surprisingly often. When installing something with PyPi you may end up downloading a whole bunch of pre-compiled (and potentially unusable) binaries. A good example of this is pytorch, but sadly it=E2=80=99s far from an unusual case. R has similar difficulties, and it has probably the sanest way of dealing with them: it just assumes the system has a suitable toolchain and libraries and headers and all that and builds everything from source. > I'm not sure that "light-weight" should mean pure scheme, though, since > that would exclude things dependent upon external libraries, like > NumPy. Requiring the Guile-only package manager to also support installing system libraries dooms it to reimplementing parts of Guix poorly. --=20 Ricardo