From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arne Babenhauserheide Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: How to make GNU Guile more successful Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:56:52 +0100 Message-ID: <87shnhabln.fsf@web.de> References: <87lgtajpkc.fsf@web.de> <878tp967p4.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1487030247 28565 195.159.176.226 (13 Feb 2017 23:57:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 23:57:27 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: mu4e 0.9.16; emacs 25.1.1 Cc: "guile-user@gnu.org" To: Marko Rauhamaa Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 14 00:57:22 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cdQUk-00073q-G6 for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:57:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60156 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdQUq-0001jY-8M for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:57:28 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56668) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdQUR-0001gQ-CU for guile-user@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:57:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdQUN-0000DP-IE for guile-user@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:57:03 -0500 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:49937) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdQUN-0000Cl-6Y for guile-user@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 18:56:59 -0500 Original-Received: from fluss ([85.212.69.50]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb103 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0LiCop-1bzjtc2S1L-00nR2E; Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:56:55 +0100 In-reply-to: <878tp967p4.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> X-Provags-ID: V03:K0:DjwIqrcn4GGBHGgInlvPVBVxkocQ1OP5jwDj6h56QmAcT9qLCyc atxR9DHjxShDNZiJG7WQdoamV7qADghdJaT8MF/iYuGPDGSAd9TbDbOx+GlG1acW8qEcrpG G4YeKODLLbb1qwsqQlRcHKjPLqRuMp1U6dRu777prTLVhMszTCwt9iuJnNCWIqRguRslihX 1flJ/QrjQp5zMirOUOGWA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V01:K0:KYi1mO6zb8M=:gMlEkORcHClWFqBQpN7yKJ zD7wJ+QRN9kTrjKUbOJlkOrL8kMtGtLynVmk9C9yp/45kdBEj+J5jMIMPTDHB0Kh15Ir9N+AP DLjRUgVBp+/5zMESDyjYCG3FMi8WZW6bhIKbKxZnIHYz7OQUaMY5IfWpnyNkEezRtuedGlyZO q3xC5u6K0vApJFwpNWxLWlYgg5lxl1Pv9ETAyisJ5FR/pNIFWLSooTg1QvOwNT2TxlRgR0OUx 2FtsYZi1pUK9Y4jWhl2p1HJIMZETOFWbjESq19ItYr71AeqQRZfDRLKFITDn9jVJgNL1JFXk9 ni3Nh3r9bYI04ATVgx6xyUWOebKAmIeCI3jkJ6l19mH57uKDhjhLVZoGDzp49wyZvEkTtdcbt QrSRnGMcdtpHpPrLypu2s5xoOMSZTYIyicocWjpo53Tmyi+xXVzdDxJjVx0UJfz9JR7TiJlwr nOrdNDG3Bx1/U7WJjrzd12D1h2BdSuzvZ+EG5+4uvf07w5o1LmSPVmwmL2uq/cXZa+JWlv30A typS9Lkv/3Z22Bs1aDC4MSw7TPgTKQGi51gJJWZd26O/kogXKtgjEd1JUw3Vzr+/dDmFL3+Il s8aSoSbJNlf9VujuQ9M8ccInOQrPOgDXTrSyq063t9t+DNfj9qGZCUnejGQz5nkBKYtgnY1dE SyRJ99IlBaESjhihrA+D4DqTTOMFBq1cJkAgRuzotr5gzmm9o+po+ekpZEZwgera6v2zyJXRX +ydFxrXazDTqgSjyft1cJCPvdCdMlEehVHKYFOM3X2C3CqkT2xkvCSXceT4= X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.11 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:13189 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marko Rauhamaa writes: > I have typed this message in emacs. Same for me, but getting people to use Emacs is harder. It might not *be* that complicated, but it *feels* different. > In my opinion one of the worst problems with Scheme is the Schemers: > Scheme lovers are often far too enthusiastic with defining new, esoteric > syntax instead of solving practical problems. > > Then, there's GOOPS, which in my opinion is simply an unnatural way to > go about object-oriented programming. It does violence both to ordinary > OO way of thinking and classic Lisp idioms. GOOPS works pretty well for me where I use it (for dispatch by type). Could you clarify your criticism: Do you think it is bad or is it just different? > Continuations and multiple values are obstacles instead of enablers. I think multiple values are nice. But they are not well-integrated (I have to import something to use them). Why do you think them enablers? Why do you think that continuations are an obstacle (do you mean general continuations or do you mean prompts)? > BTW, Python seems to be suffering from quite many self-inflicted wounds: > Python2/Python3 incompatibility, Py2 vs. Py3 really hurts, yes. It still really hurts and will likely hurt for the next 10 years. I think that should be a lesson for all other language-implementors: Once you start to become popular, you cannot do any backwards-incompatible changes without endangering your position. Once you start to get traction, you have to stick to your horse. Many other wounds I do not see as much: > asyncio, type annotation, type annotations should provide nice ways to optimize for pypy and other more optimizing Python implementations. > decorators, Decorators are really cool to use: @with_progress def something(): time.sleep(10) That=E2=80=99s almost like (with-progress (define (something) (sleep 10))) But decorators are actually definition time, so they bring the tower of meta-levels to Python =E2=80=A6 > dunder jungle, What=E2=80=99s that? > meta-object programming, That=E2=80=99s needed to make some things elegant. "Different 20%"-rule aga= in. > Unicode illusion. (Guile has fallen into that last trap as well, > unfortunately.) I=E2=80=99m using Python and Guile for physics and math (to some degree), a= nd having good Unicode-support is great for that. What=E2=80=99s your practical criticism here? > In its eagerness to please everyone, Python might well > be jumping the shark. > > There's one thing Python has over Guile, still: Python's system call > support is outstanding. For example, I managed to implement a full-blown > shell using Python. That was the first time I ever ran into > terminal-related system calls, and Python had them all. Which ones are missing in Guile? Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJYokfFAAoJEBPvjUUkA8PrmR0P/3qphAlWl2n1KnYX7O8TW1yD V0wGsDcb6gpI+WsuxGcb8/sIr3/a9od+7BEPhpoP8mNgInShs85k2KO9uaJwBIrR eQEBhFwPeSfl5BYjdx7n+H+ncxV+9Wn2gUUCAXe9eZDP20BdfNgh4nAWplS0k4aA G0Fr4kbLrBzCq8o/0wt8r53W3R0K6TeJecszw6XGJU1EsLX6kDik8lG20iW/8hvz LTUoduc5CDQ0ci9RLcAjMff3hA1Ln+VzjUqfPFvJIXUMHkhKTlBdqaFhhNcGYzq2 KuFAKMTfig/PjaNgIF+iGlZGpqgJ3JngdcZY95wDb/AebWNpmLTLoGL6uDR8EYgu r2Eb3dYrsfwV62Hx01ULVZLwyOWX3dmSk+w6Hwse2RJTAw23L1Ro95Jt7S5RBDza Q68APxZNbmiGbTTv7Y2U4pR2U79L5zE7U7LHiwC22NdFkOAZ1sjFiUSqplXJxhNd SAnA6IHwylbLovPwquhqquL9RO7J9ooN0Zyoc9x/AUv0Cvq1JR+mPE85mK01j4Qy l2p90eH+ZzueGDVlZxnbz81E5kCwh6hYE0JthgdQNiov8lIENY8ejeWePLxq0QJh 0wUnQEJXS8aleZkfN3SsOQgn7bai5tpem4LRohxE5z540uR0RD663s1jkj+DmoSf C5RdJwo4vDBI5krJ5LIx =ygDB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--