* GNU Guile community in google+ @ 2012-12-17 0:23 zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 2:03 ` Greg Troxel ` (4 more replies) 0 siblings, 5 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 0:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guile-user I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 0:23 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 2:03 ` Greg Troxel 2012-12-17 2:18 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Greg Troxel @ 2012-12-17 2:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 395 bytes --] zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es I always find it odd and #disturbing that Free Software communities use sites like this, built with non-free software and with at best unclear privacy policies. But perhaps the guile community is not using this. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 194 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 2:03 ` Greg Troxel @ 2012-12-17 2:18 ` Nala Ginrut 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-17 2:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Greg Troxel; +Cc: guile-user On Sun, 2012-12-16 at 21:03 -0500, Greg Troxel wrote: > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > > > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es > > I always find it odd and #disturbing that Free Software communities use > sites like this, built with non-free software and with at best unclear > privacy policies. But perhaps the guile community is not using this. > I think this couldn't be the official one (for the privacy policies), but Guilers do need a place to play together. Besides, may Guilers use gmail which is also a google product, like me, so I don't think we should against it. PS: If someday we can finish guile-on-rails, we can build such a community with Guile itself. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 0:23 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 2:03 ` Greg Troxel @ 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 7:02 ` Nala Ginrut ` (3 more replies) 2012-12-17 22:36 ` Ludovic Courtès ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 4 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 6:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es No, please do not join this so-called "community". Google+, like Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to centralize control of internet communications. They abuse the privacy of their users in many ways and must be rejected. I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking sites, and I know Ludovic Courtès feels the same way. As far as I know Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either. The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to identify yourself. zx spectrumgomas, I would ask that you please delete this so-called Google+ "community". Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 7:02 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-17 8:21 ` John Darrington 2012-12-17 10:49 ` Mark H Weaver ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-17 7:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: guile-user On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 01:36 -0500, Mark H Weaver wrote: > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es > > No, please do not join this so-called "community". Google+, like > Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to > centralize control of internet communications. They abuse the privacy > of their users in many ways and must be rejected. > > I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking > sites, and I know Ludovic Courtès feels the same way. As far as I know > Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either. > > The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on > irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols > that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to > identify yourself. > OK, I left it. But should we have a more powerful site for our community? The classic Guile main site seems too lean for the fans. > zx spectrumgomas, I would ask that you please delete this so-called > Google+ "community". > > Mark > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 7:02 ` Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-17 8:21 ` John Darrington 2012-12-17 9:38 ` Nala Ginrut 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: John Darrington @ 2012-12-17 8:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nala Ginrut; +Cc: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1927 bytes --] On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 03:02:44PM +0800, Nala Ginrut wrote: On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 01:36 -0500, Mark H Weaver wrote: > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es > > No, please do not join this so-called "community". Google+, like > Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to > centralize control of internet communications. They abuse the privacy > of their users in many ways and must be rejected. > > I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking > sites, and I know Ludovic Court??s feels the same way. As far as I know > Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either. > > The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on > irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols > that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to > identify yourself. > OK, I left it. But should we have a more powerful site for our community? The classic Guile main site seems too lean for the fans. What's wrong with this mailing list? and of course the #guile channel on=20 freenode ? Are they not good enough? If somebody wants to to create some additional forum, I would not be against it. But like others have suggested, Google does not seem to believe in the same ideals as Guile so it would not seem to be the best place to create it. Maybe a group on libreplanet.org would be a possibility? http://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:Software_Groups J' -- PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3 fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285 A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3 See http://keys.gnupg.net or any PGP keyserver for public key. [-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 8:21 ` John Darrington @ 2012-12-17 9:38 ` Nala Ginrut 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-17 9:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Darrington; +Cc: guile-user On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 09:21 +0100, John Darrington wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 03:02:44PM +0800, Nala Ginrut wrote: > On Mon, 2012-12-17 at 01:36 -0500, Mark H Weaver wrote: > > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > > > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > > > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es > > > > No, please do not join this so-called "community". Google+, like > > Facebook, is a very disturbing attempt by a single corporation to > > centralize control of internet communications. They abuse the privacy > > of their users in many ways and must be rejected. > > > > I for one absolutely refuse to use the centralized social networking > > sites, and I know Ludovic Court??s feels the same way. As far as I know > > Andy Wingo doesn't use Google+ either. > > > > The real Guile community is on its mailing lists and on #guile on > > irc.freenode.net, both of which are based on decentralized protocols > > that are not controlled by any corporation do not require you to > > identify yourself. > > > > OK, I left it. But should we have a more powerful site for our > community? The classic Guile main site seems too lean for the fans. > > What's wrong with this mailing list? and of course the #guile channel on=20 > freenode ? Are they not good enough? > I didn't mean any wrong with this mailing list, I've learned many things here. It's just a suggestion we may add new things for our communication. With the developing of Guile, we do need new things to share more, say ,wiki/forum... And guilers may share tutorials/articles/projects on it, like other community does. > If somebody wants to to create some additional forum, I would not be against > it. But like others have suggested, Google does not seem to believe in the > same ideals as Guile so it would not seem to be the best place to create it. > Maybe a group on libreplanet.org would be a possibility? > http://libreplanet.org/wiki/LibrePlanet:Software_Groups > > J' > > I think this place is nice! ;-) Besides, I'd like to share tutorials/articles in English/Chinese on the wiki. The problem is, who's going to create/maintain it? Any volunteers? And could this be the official part of Guile? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 7:02 ` Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-17 10:49 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 10:57 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 10:54 ` zx spectrumgomas [not found] ` <CAFCvokBZDzVR9-1iiXK-=nr0EpgS7LQ4puuDako05Y-1SzrSMA@mail.gmail.com> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 10:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user I'd encourage everyone to watch this important speech by Eben Moglen: http://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia He makes the point far more powerfully that I ever could about what is at stake. Thanks, Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 10:49 ` Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 10:57 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 11:12 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 10:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: guile-user Sorry, I'm not native speaker and I can't understand English videos well. I'm a Spanish and it has opened an account in google+ http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Film/Pix/pictures/2012/7/31/1343742378641/Skyfall-trailer-pic-7-008.jpg :D ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 10:57 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 11:12 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 11:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: guile-user Sorry, google traductor. I'm Spanish and I've opened an account in google+ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 7:02 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-17 10:49 ` Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 10:54 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 11:39 ` hellekin [not found] ` <CAFCvokBZDzVR9-1iiXK-=nr0EpgS7LQ4puuDako05Y-1SzrSMA@mail.gmail.com> 3 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 10:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: guile-user Andy Wingo sends its comments from identi.ca to twitter because he thinks that it may be useful. In fact, I follow him there. In my opinion this is something quite similar. I know many people disagree with google+, but for example Gtk+ has just opened and many people have joined. I am a newbie, but in Google+ I would write SICP's exercises I'm going to do. Here not just because no one else does that, it doesn't seem the right place. In my opinion GNU guile should use such accounts for greater mass of users. I will not delete account, but if Andy Wingo or Ludovic Courtès say explicitly that they do not agree with the use of that name I'll change it for "GNU Guile (not official)". But I think it would be ridiculous, it's evident that it isn't official. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 10:54 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 11:39 ` hellekin 2012-12-17 13:00 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: hellekin @ 2012-12-17 11:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1237 bytes --] On 12/17/2012 07:54 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > > I am a newbie, but in Google+ I would write SICP's exercises I'm going > to do. Here not just because no one else does that, it doesn't seem > the right place. In my opinion GNU guile should use such accounts for > greater mass of users. > *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly clueless. When Google changed its privacy policy earlier this year, I closed my account. Although Google services are attractive, I can't but suggest that you, creator of this "GNU Guile (not official)" group, need to learn about the motivations and the philosophy behind the GNU project. Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM), but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the official community channels, and be harmful. Regards, == hk [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 900 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 11:39 ` hellekin @ 2012-12-17 13:00 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 17:58 ` Mark H Weaver 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 13:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hellekin; +Cc: guile-user > *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I > can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly > clueless. I've been following the list of guile about a year. If you had followed it I assure you that you would not see so clueless. (from the viewpoint of a newbie) > Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM), > but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that > won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on > G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue > that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that > initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the > official community channels, and be harmful. I think you're overestimating a google+ account for newbies: if what you say happened, GNU Guile's official forums already had a problem before Google+ account. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 13:00 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 17:58 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 21:24 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: >> *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I >> can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly >> clueless. > > I've been following the list of guile about a year. If you had > followed it I assure you that you would not see so clueless. (from > the viewpoint of a newbie) This is an appeal to authority. Here you are essentially saying "I have more experience reading this mailing list, so trust me, I know better." The archives of this mailing list are archived publicly, so anyone (even newcomers) can read the same messages you've read during the last year: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/ Your assertion above requires justification, and you have not provided one. How do the messages of the last year support your argument? Everyone here has access to the same evidence that you do, and you can provide links to the relevant messages. hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> writes: >> Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM), >> but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that >> won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on >> G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue >> that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that >> initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the >> official community channels, and be harmful. Well said. > I think you're overestimating a google+ account for newbies: if what > you say happened, GNU Guile's official forums already had a problem > before Google+ account. This reply does not even begin to address the issues raised by hellekin. If there's a problem with the official forums, let's talk about that. What problem are you trying to solve? Let's work together to find a solution that does not hand the keys of our community to a for-profit corporation, and that respects users' rights, such as the right to participate anonymously. Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 17:58 ` Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 21:24 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 22:34 ` hellekin 2012-12-17 22:41 ` Ludovic Courtès 0 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: guile-user On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote: > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > >>> *** I just subscribed to this list a couple of days ago, with the hope I >>> can find some time to learn Guile. I find this initiative interestingly >>> clueless. >> >> I've been following the list of guile about a year. If you had >> followed it I assure you that you would not see so clueless. (from >> the viewpoint of a newbie) > > This is an appeal to authority. Here you are essentially saying "I have > more experience reading this mailing list, so trust me, I know better." > > The archives of this mailing list are archived publicly, so anyone (even > newcomers) can read the same messages you've read during the last year: > > http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/ > > Your assertion above requires justification, and you have not provided > one. How do the messages of the last year support your argument? > Everyone here has access to the same evidence that you do, and you can > provide links to the relevant messages. In my opinion, the problem is not these forums. People are very friendly here and they always answer. In fact, I would ask doubts here, it's the suitable place. The problem is that it is ONLY a forum. It isn't a Planet. I think that everyone has understand me before. In fact, Libre Planet has been suggested. (I do not know create a Libre Planet). What do the newbies in the forum? Do we say that "I has done 2.4 SICP exercise"? People will say, rightly, in the forum "Very well, What do you want, a gift?" However, for other newbies may be important. The forum works great to answer, but not as blog. In fact, the only one who is doing a great job in this sense is Andy Wingo, but not for newbies. > hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> writes: >>> Seeking to attract a mass of users may seem like "a good thing" (TM), >>> but really, what you want to do is produce your contents on a site that >>> won't even *try* to spy on their users. If you produce your contents on >>> G+, many Guile users simply won't benefit from them. One could argue >>> that people not knowing Guile may come to know it and use it from that >>> initiative, but in the end, it will only deflect people from the >>> official community channels, and be harmful. > > Well said. > >> I think you're overestimating a google+ account for newbies: if what >> you say happened, GNU Guile's official forums already had a problem >> before Google+ account. > > This reply does not even begin to address the issues raised by hellekin. > > If there's a problem with the official forums, let's talk about that. > What problem are you trying to solve? > > Let's work together to find a solution that does not hand the keys of > our community to a for-profit corporation, and that respects users' > rights, such as the right to participate anonymously. > > Mark I did not say that my proposal be ideal in regard to this. Obviously it's true what you say in that paragraph above. But I do not know another solution. if anyone has a better solution I would love to hear it ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 21:24 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 22:34 ` hellekin 2012-12-17 22:41 ` Ludovic Courtès 1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: hellekin @ 2012-12-17 22:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 932 bytes --] On 12/17/2012 06:24 PM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > > I think that everyone has understand me before. In fact, Libre Planet > has been suggested. (I do not know create a Libre Planet). > > What do the newbies in the forum? Do we say that "I has done 2.4 SICP > exercise"? People will say, rightly, in the forum "Very well, What do > you want, a gift?" However, for other newbies may be important. > > The forum works great to answer, but not as blog. In fact, the only > one who is doing a great job in this sense is Andy Wingo, but not for > newbies. > *** Good points. As a newbie, I would appreciate such entry-level pointers and help. LibrePlanet, however, is not a "planet" (blog aggregation), it is a wiki: you could start a page at http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:GNU_Guile and publish your notes and tutorials there I suppose. == hk P.S.: is there a Guile "planet"? Or something like GNU blogs? [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 900 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 21:24 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 22:34 ` hellekin @ 2012-12-17 22:41 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 7:05 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 19:27 ` Mike Gran 1 sibling, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-17 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis: > The problem is that it is ONLY a forum. It isn't a > Planet. Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators that may be relevant to Guilers, such as: http://planet.gnu.org/ http://scheme.dk/planet/ Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 22:41 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-18 7:05 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 19:27 ` Mike Gran 1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 7:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: guile-user From hellekin: > *** Good points. As a newbie, I would appreciate such entry-level > pointers and help. LibrePlanet, however, is not a "planet" (blog > aggregation), it is a wiki: you could start a page at > http://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:GNU_Guile and publish your notes and > tutorials there I suppose. Well, it seems that newbies agree. :D From Ludovic Courtès: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote: > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis: > >> The problem is that it is ONLY a forum. It isn't a >> Planet. > > Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators > that may be relevant to Guilers, such as: > > http://planet.gnu.org/ > http://scheme.dk/planet/ > > Ludo’. Yes, that's +/- what I mean. Although the model I would want is similar to google+, with social networks and more casual. Ideal for newbies. I think that nowadays if a project wants attract attention it must use social networks. The problem is that there is little feedback in Identi.ca : https://twitter.com/federicomena/status/204994604649553920 . If a newbie starts talking on identi.ca seems to be talking to the walls: http://identi.ca/group/guile . And the twitter account does not explain much: https://twitter.com/gnuguile . http://planet.gnu.org obviously isn't suitable place to newbies guilers place their notes. In my opinion this option is discarded. http://scheme.dk/planet/ seems a better choice, but it doesn't use social networks. It's less casual. Not ideal for newbies. Neither It is only for GNU Guile. Besides I do not see that this page does not supports Google. It says explicity: "To see old posts: Visit Google Reader" "Add to Google". Racketeers also is in this planet, and they are also in google+ : https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/108652050642990465975 https://plus.google.com/103883747126741038443/posts ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 22:41 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 7:05 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 19:27 ` Mike Gran 2012-12-19 20:42 ` zx spectrumgomas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Mike Gran @ 2012-12-19 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès, zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user@gnu.org > From: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> > Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators > that may be relevant to Guilers, such as: > > http://planet.gnu.org/ > http://scheme.dk/planet/ My uninteresting ramblings show up on planet.gnu.org sometimes. But I don't write much about Guile. I've seen wingo's stuff appear on planet.gnome.org. -Mike ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-19 19:27 ` Mike Gran @ 2012-12-19 20:42 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 20:42 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mike Gran; +Cc: guile-user@gnu.org On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 8:27 PM, Mike Gran <spk121@yahoo.com> wrote: >> From: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> >> Not sure if that’s what you mean here, but there are blog aggregators >> that may be relevant to Guilers, such as: >> >> http://planet.gnu.org/ >> http://scheme.dk/planet/ > > My uninteresting ramblings show up on planet.gnu.org sometimes. But I > don't write much about Guile. > > I've seen wingo's stuff appear on planet.gnome.org. > > -Mike As you see there is no centralized location where one can find GNU Guile blogs, hence it would be important blog aggregators that Ludovic Courtès mentioned. I assure you search in google guile is not easy: https://www.google.es/search?q=guile&hl=es&client=ubuntu&hs=IQR&tbo=u&channel=fs&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ei=6yDSUJf3C4-HhQeE-YHgBQ&ved=0CFgQsAQ&biw=1071&bih=757 . Scheme also is a difficult word. For example clojure did the right thing in this sense. But of course, who did this know years ago? This already hasn't nothing to see with Guile. But the situation of Planet Gnome, being obviously much better than Guile, neither is optimal. To link your blog to Planet Gnome you must have paid your membership fee, and this, although little money, may not be easy above all depending on the country. I do not know if this has been solved but I think that not. Besides, in Planet Gnome is allowed to talk about issues that are not related to Gnome: someone tells his last trip, Miguel de Icaza can talk if he liked his new ipad, etc. I really think it's great and fun, but many people think it is a waste of valuable time. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
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* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ [not found] ` <878v8x2cuw.fsf@tines.lan> @ 2012-12-17 14:04 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-17 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: guile-user On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:26 AM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote: >> Andy Wingo sends its comments from identi.ca to twitter because he >> thinks that it may be useful. > > That is not nearly as bad, because the messages he publishes on twitter > are also published on identi.ca. Therefore, users who wish to read his > writings are not pressured into joining twitter to do so. > > By publishing content that is only available on Google+, and encouraging > others to create a community there, you are attempting to add to the > value of Google+, and thus to increase the pressure that users feel to > join it and contribute to it. So if I write my comments too here then it is not too bad. http://identi.ca/group/guile ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 0:23 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 2:03 ` Greg Troxel 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-17 22:36 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 8:39 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 23:36 ` David Thompson 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo 4 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-17 22:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 637 bytes --] Hi, As others wrote, please don’t advertise this service here. This one and similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in opposition with what we stand for. As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC. If you think these tools aren’t suitable for your workflow, that is fine. In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users. “Building a community” should not imply giving up on essential freedoms. Thanks in advance, Ludo’. [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 22:36 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-18 8:39 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 8:57 ` John Darrington ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 8:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: guile-user On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote: > Hi, > > As others wrote, please don’t advertise this service here. This one and > similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in > opposition with what we stand for. > > As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly > use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC. > > If you think these tools aren’t suitable for your workflow, that is > fine. In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users. “Building a > community” should not imply giving up on essential freedoms. > > Thanks in advance, > Ludo’. the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they don't know come up with these solutions (Me here). In my opinion the solution is attract attention in social networks, then get do a "gnu-rails" that mentioned here. And then resolve the Planet's issue. As we say in Spain: You can't make a tortilla without breaking eggs. I understand that your opinions are morally more respectable than mine (No irony in this sentence, it is really what I think). (irony #on) But in Spain it is customary to stay acquitted if you confess your sins. It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with communication in social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's because his eyes are closed. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 8:39 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 8:57 ` John Darrington 2012-12-18 10:14 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 9:35 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 9:36 ` Nala Ginrut 2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: John Darrington @ 2012-12-18 8:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: Ludovic Court?s, guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2971 bytes --] On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 09:39:31AM +0100, zx spectrumgomas wrote: On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Ludovic Court?s <ludo@gnu.org> wrote: > Hi, > > As others wrote, please don?t advertise this service here. This one and > similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in > opposition with what we stand for. > > As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly > use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC. > > If you think these tools aren?t suitable for your workflow, that is > fine. In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users. ?Building a > community? should not imply giving up on essential freedoms. > > Thanks in advance, > Ludo?. the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they don't know come up with these solutions (Me here). In my opinion the solution is attract attention in social networks, then get do a "gnu-rails" that mentioned here. And then resolve the Planet's issue. As we say in Spain: You can't make a tortilla without breaking eggs. I understand that your opinions are morally more respectable than mine (No irony in this sentence, it is really what I think). (irony #on) But in Spain it is customary to stay acquitted if you confess your sins. It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with communication in social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's because his eyes are closed. The English saying uses "cake" instead of "tortilla". Personally, I don't see why a project like Guile needs a presence on any social network. After-all, Guile is a technical project, not a social one. On the other hand, it is part of GNU, a project which aims to address a growing social problem in the world today. I find social networks/forums awkward to use, and a rather inefficient way to get help on technical matters, but I'm aware that others have different opinions. So if that is one of my eggs which has to get broken, in order to help bake this particular cake/tortilla then so be it. However, if we have to break not only eggs, but also destroy the freedom of the people to whom we hope to feed the cake, then it would be better not to bake it at all. So please start a social net group if you think it helps. But use services, and systems which respect the goals that GNU and Guile strive for. J' -- PGP Public key ID: 1024D/2DE827B3 fingerprint = 8797 A26D 0854 2EAB 0285 A290 8A67 719C 2DE8 27B3 See http://keys.gnupg.net or any PGP keyserver for public key. [-- Attachment #2: Digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 8:57 ` John Darrington @ 2012-12-18 10:14 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 14:11 ` Mark H Weaver 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 10:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: John Darrington; +Cc: guile-user > The English saying uses "cake" instead of "tortilla". Thaanks :D > Personally, I don't see why a project like Guile needs a presence on any social > network. After-all, Guile is a technical project, not a social one. On the > other hand, it is part of GNU, a project which aims to address a growing social > problem in the world today. > > I find social networks/forums awkward to use, and a rather inefficient way to get > help on technical matters, but I'm aware that others have different opinions. So > if that is one of my eggs which has to get broken, in order to help bake this > particular cake/tortilla then so be it. However, if we have to break not only eggs, > but also destroy the freedom of the people to whom we hope to feed the cake, then > it would be better not to bake it at all. Honestly, if you do not see that social networks are essential to the success of a project nowadays I'm sure you have more than 30 years. I have 40 and I have not used social networking until + / - 2 years, but it's amazing the amount of information/opinion is moving there. For the forties this may not be a problem, but look where teenagers are: watching their timeline on a android or apple. GNU Guile doesn't capture attention of all those people, and if not remedied GNU Guile will age. With all due respect Andy Wingo and Ludovic Courtes will not live forever. People that use Scheme is a minority, and that minority is largely Racket. In my opinion not because it is better, neither because you can do a gui or graphics more easily with it. In my opinion is because they are handling the issue of social networks better. > So please start a social net group if you think it helps. But use services, and > systems which respect the goals that GNU and Guile strive for. The respectable term is relative: for some may not be respectable use twitter that Andy Wingo uses. For others it may not be respectable use this planet http://scheme.dk/planet/ that explicitly says "To see old posts: Visit Google Reader" and recommended Ludovic Courtes. Racketers or Gnomers (I think that Gnome is a GNU project) use Google+ and for some may not be respectable. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 10:14 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 14:11 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-18 14:18 ` Noah Lavine 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-18 14:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > Honestly, if you do not see that social networks are essential to the > success of a project nowadays I'm sure you have more than 30 years. I > have 40 and I have not used social networking until + / - 2 years, but > it's amazing the amount of information/opinion is moving there. For > the forties this may not be a problem, but look where teenagers are: > watching their timeline on a android or apple. GNU Guile doesn't > capture attention of all those people, and if not remedied GNU Guile > will age. With all due respect Andy Wingo and Ludovic Courtes will not > live forever. Even if what you say is true, we must still reject the centralized social networking sites. That issue is incomparably more important than the popularity of GNU Guile. It is no exaggeration to say that freedom of thought is at stake. Watch Eben Moglen's speech to understand why: http://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia I would much rather work toward a future with freedom of thought but no GNU Guile than a future with GNU Guile but without freedom of thought. Please remember that the purpose of the GNU operating system (of which Guile is one component) is to help achieve freedom for computer users. It makes no sense to abandon freedom in order to help promote GNU. Mark ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 14:11 ` Mark H Weaver @ 2012-12-18 14:18 ` Noah Lavine 2012-12-18 15:14 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Noah Lavine @ 2012-12-18 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mark H Weaver; +Cc: Guile Mailing List [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2493 bytes --] Hello, I don't entirely understand what everyone here wants, but there are reasons besides company control to avoid proprietary networking sites like Google+. Since it will never be the case that all Guilers have an account on Google+ (or Facebook, or whatever else), a group there could only ever include part of the community. Especially in a community as small as Guile's, I'd like to see a solution that includes everyone. However, there clearly is a desire for some new forum for Guilers to talk to each other. It appears, based on https://www.google.com/search?q=make+a+blog+aggregator , that the software to set a blog aggregator up is free (and Free). There's an LWN article on how to set one up. There is also a WordPress plugin, hosted here: http://feedwordpress.radgeek.com/ . A wiki might also be useful. If so, let's agree to use the one at libreplanet.org (or something similar), so that the Guile wiki notes will all be in one place and can easily be found. Thanks, Noah On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Mark H Weaver <mhw@netris.org> wrote: > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> writes: > > Honestly, if you do not see that social networks are essential to the > > success of a project nowadays I'm sure you have more than 30 years. I > > have 40 and I have not used social networking until + / - 2 years, but > > it's amazing the amount of information/opinion is moving there. For > > the forties this may not be a problem, but look where teenagers are: > > watching their timeline on a android or apple. GNU Guile doesn't > > capture attention of all those people, and if not remedied GNU Guile > > will age. With all due respect Andy Wingo and Ludovic Courtes will not > > live forever. > > Even if what you say is true, we must still reject the centralized > social networking sites. That issue is incomparably more important than > the popularity of GNU Guile. It is no exaggeration to say that freedom > of thought is at stake. Watch Eben Moglen's speech to understand why: > > > http://archive.org/details/EbenMoglen-WhyFreedomOfThoughtRequiresFreeMediaAndWhyFreeMedia > > I would much rather work toward a future with freedom of thought but no > GNU Guile than a future with GNU Guile but without freedom of thought. > > Please remember that the purpose of the GNU operating system (of which > Guile is one component) is to help achieve freedom for computer users. > It makes no sense to abandon freedom in order to help promote GNU. > > Mark > > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3432 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 14:18 ` Noah Lavine @ 2012-12-18 15:14 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 11:40 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 15:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noah Lavine; +Cc: Guile Mailing List On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Noah Lavine <noah.b.lavine@gmail.com> wrote: > Hello, > > I don't entirely understand what everyone here wants, but there are reasons > besides company control to avoid proprietary networking sites like Google+. > Since it will never be the case that all Guilers have an account on Google+ > (or Facebook, or whatever else), a group there could only ever include part > of the community. Especially in a community as small as Guile's, I'd like to > see a solution that includes everyone. > > However, there clearly is a desire for some new forum for Guilers to talk to > each other. It appears, based on > https://www.google.com/search?q=make+a+blog+aggregator , that the software > to set a blog aggregator up is free (and Free). There's an LWN article on > how to set one up. There is also a WordPress plugin, hosted here: > http://feedwordpress.radgeek.com/ . > > A wiki might also be useful. If so, let's agree to use the one at > libreplanet.org (or something similar), so that the Guile wiki notes will > all be in one place and can easily be found. > > Thanks, > Noah Yes, blog aggregator would improve official forums. It is a good idea. But, as I said to Ludovic Courtès would lack the casual component of social networks. As I said I will see if Diaspora works well tonight and It has communities. A wiki might also be useful, but in my opinion much less than the blog aggregator, because GNU Guile manual is great. Much work is well done there. Wiki would use for small details missing in manual, this for example: http://git.savannah.gnu.org/gitweb/?p=guile.git;a=commitdiff;h=41a9e8829c1720da01f3bd471552688806478a51 or examples for newbies. But that's a lot of work and it is better to focus on making these improvements to the manual as Andy Wingo is doing. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 15:14 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 11:40 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 15:10 ` hellekin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 11:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Noah Lavine; +Cc: Guile Mailing List According to I've been reading Diaspora unfortunately does not have the Communities feature. Also there is less people than identi.ca . But it has also become clear that Diaspora (and I don't think anyone can deny that Diaspora shares the same philosophy as GNU) uses efficiently social networks: https://twitter.com/joindiaspora/ . Here Diaspora project's director saying go away noob!: https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/281348200932184064 (this does not occur with Communities feature). Diaspora uses Ruby, why? Because teenagers knows it. Why? Yukihiro Matsumoto has used very well social networks: https://twitter.com/yukihiro_matz https://twitter.com/matz_translated . And Who won the FSF Award recently? GNU Guile? http://www.fsf.org/news/2011-free-software-awards-announced . In the end the results are what count. In my opinion I think it is very wrong the video that mentioned . Real life doesn't work this way. Right now I'm going to keep google+ account. When Diaspora or other social network works well I'll change there. I'll post showing this thread in which I think it is clear that you are right morally, but for practical reasons account keeps. Also I will say always in Google+ that for good, official and reliable GNU Guile answers the right place are these forums. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-19 11:40 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 15:10 ` hellekin 2012-12-19 18:02 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-24 16:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: hellekin @ 2012-12-19 15:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: Guile Mailing List [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3692 bytes --] On 12/19/2012 08:40 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > According to I've been reading Diaspora unfortunately does not have > the Communities feature. > *** Can you describe that functionality? > I don't think anyone can deny that Diaspora shares the same philosophy as GNU > *** I didn't see any D* developer participate in important federation meetings lately. Maybe Free Software Activists are not to their taste. > Here Diaspora project's director saying go away noob!: > https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/281348200932184064 > *** What does that mean? This is lacking context. > Diaspora uses Ruby, why? Because teenagers knows it. > *** Teenagers know it because it's a nice language to use. Given a choice between PHP and Ruby, what would you choose? Teenagers know Node.JS. Remember JavaScript 10 years ago, before Node and JQuery: it was loathed. But now that people started understanding how to use it (and thanks to the newer JS engines and standardization), it's become hip again. > Yukihiro Matsumoto has used very well social networks > [...] > Real life doesn't work this way. Right now I'm going to keep google+ > account. When Diaspora or other social network works > *** You keep using "social network" instead of "social network services". You're confusing the two. The social network is formed by the accumulation (over time) of human relationships. Social network services, or "digital tools to support social networking", enhance the possibilities of the social network, by making communication and dissemination easier, or simply: possible, when the network is large enough. In any case, you should realize that the social network of the Guile project is already a reality, and that it does not use G+, mostly, as I understand it, for philosophical reasons. Disclaimer: I'm new to this project and mailing-list, so I cannot talk for them ; I'm just talking from my point of view of free software activist, and social networking experience, both theoretical and practical. > I'll post showing this thread in which I think it is clear that > you are right morally > *** If you're intending to post anything from me on G+, please don't. You may link to the mailing-list archive instead. > I will say always in Google+ that for good, official and reliable GNU > Guile answers the right place are these forums. > *** I respect your vision, but I think "doing it right" would imply spending energy on making the existing environment better, rather than deflecting people to commercial services. Let's hope that this can help "recruiting" people who will help that former way. One thing you could do is maintain a public G+ page on GNU Guile pointing to the actual social network hangouts (I'm not talking of Google's video service, but this mailing-list, etc.), and abstain from posting "interesting contents" publicly there, nurturing the official documents instead. I still think that taking care of a GNU Guile group on LibrePlanet would make all things much easier, by simply linking existing contents (official documentation, blog articles, source code, etc.) in a way that creates more sense to different audiences, including newbies. I'm convinced that the work you're going to do on G+ would have benefited LibrePlanet and GNU Guile much more than targeting a large audience in a non-privacy-respectful, and proprietary environment such as Google+. Note that it would be trivial to have automated status updates from the LibrePlanet wiki to Twitter, via Identi.ca (i.e. to use "a commercial broadcast service" as a mass medium, instead of a conversational medium.) == hk [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 900 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-19 15:10 ` hellekin @ 2012-12-19 18:02 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-24 16:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hellekin; +Cc: Guile Mailing List Sorry, I put the previous answer in half of the thread. A mistake. On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 4:10 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> wrote: > On 12/19/2012 08:40 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: >> According to I've been reading Diaspora unfortunately does not have >> the Communities feature. >> > *** Can you describe that functionality? The "communities" of Google+. In one only account can talk many people. For example in twitter neither can. If it was possible then I would use twitter, not Google+. >> I don't think anyone can deny that Diaspora shares the same philosophy as GNU >> > *** I didn't see any D* developer participate in important federation > meetings lately. Maybe Free Software Activists are not to their taste. If you say that Diaspora neither share philosophy GNU, I honestly do not know who else you can say that if share philosophy GNU. Besides, in these forums also recommended that I use it. >> Here Diaspora project's director saying go away noob!: >> https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/281348200932184064 >> > *** What does that mean? This is lacking context. It is the same that if I had appropriated this account: https://twitter.com/gnuguile and official GNU guile would like to use later. This does not occur With a "community" account. >> Diaspora uses Ruby, why? Because teenagers knows it. >> > *** Teenagers know it because it's a nice language to use. Given a > choice between PHP and Ruby, what would you choose? Teenagers know > Node.JS. Remember JavaScript 10 years ago, before Node and JQuery: it > was loathed. But now that people started understanding how to use it > (and thanks to the newer JS engines and standardization), it's become > hip again. I did not say that Ruby isn't a nice language, although I like most Scheme :D . I say that it has used very well social networks. The same is Vala and C #, I'm not saying that C# is not better, it is. But why was it so succesful? Books, documentation. Vala can't do that. His power should be social network. >> Yukihiro Matsumoto has used very well social networks >> [...] Award with Richard Stallman using social networks. is it not interesting? :D >> Real life doesn't work this way. Right now I'm going to keep google+ >> account. When Diaspora or other social network works >> > *** You keep using "social network" instead of "social network > services". You're confusing the two. The social network is formed by the > accumulation (over time) of human relationships. Social network > services, or "digital tools to support social networking", enhance the > possibilities of the social network, by making communication and > dissemination easier, or simply: possible, when the network is large enough. In Spanish everyone understands "redes sociales". In Spanish your "social network" would be "comunidad". But it's the same, you have understood perfectly what I mean. > In any case, you should realize that the social network of the Guile > project is already a reality, and that it does not use G+, mostly, as I > understand it, for philosophical reasons. Disclaimer: I'm new to this > project and mailing-list, so I cannot talk for them ; I'm just talking > from my point of view of free software activist, and social networking > experience, both theoretical and practical. >> I'll post showing this thread in which I think it is clear that >> you are right morally >> > *** If you're intending to post anything from me on G+, please don't. > You may link to the mailing-list archive instead. I have already done that: the link , and I will always do that. >> I will say always in Google+ that for good, official and reliable GNU >> Guile answers the right place are these forums. > *** I respect your vision, but I think "doing it right" would imply > spending energy on making the existing environment better, rather than > deflecting people to commercial services. Let's hope that this can help > "recruiting" people who will help that former way. I can't spend more energy. I'm 40 years old, family and little money. A paradise :D. > One thing you could do is maintain a public G+ page on GNU Guile > pointing to the actual social network hangouts (I'm not talking of > Google's video service, but this mailing-list, etc.), and abstain from > posting "interesting contents" publicly there, nurturing the official > documents instead. I want put the link to the official forums in a prominent position on the page but I think that it isn't possible. If anyone knows a way that mentioned it and I will do that. The "interesting contents" of official forums will link it. My "interesting contents" (coming from a newbie this is laughable) I'm not sure but I think that I will do a blog and link to google+, identi.ca and forum blogger account if it finally becomes. Casual conversations if it is in identi.ca, in identi.ca (In a year no one has spoken). If it is in google+, in google+. Here I'm talking about myself. Rest of people in google+ I can't talk. But +/- I suppose that the same. > I still think that taking care of a GNU Guile group on LibrePlanet would > make all things much easier, by simply linking existing contents > (official documentation, blog articles, source code, etc.) in a way that > creates more sense to different audiences, including newbies. > > I'm convinced that the work you're going to do on G+ would have > benefited LibrePlanet and GNU Guile much more than targeting a large > audience in a non-privacy-respectful, and proprietary environment such > as Google+. Note that it would be trivial to have automated status > updates from the LibrePlanet wiki to Twitter, via Identi.ca (i.e. to use > "a commercial broadcast service" as a mass medium, instead of a > conversational medium.) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-19 15:10 ` hellekin 2012-12-19 18:02 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-24 16:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-24 17:39 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 1 sibling, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-24 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hellekin; +Cc: Guile Mailing List Here a member of the FSF and he seems that uses google+, indeed quite efficiently: https://twitter.com/spectrumgomas/status/283239470537510913/photo/1 GNU Hurd progresses. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-24 16:08 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-24 17:39 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2012-12-24 20:49 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2012-12-24 17:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: Guile Mailing List [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1383 bytes --] () zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> () Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:08:43 +0100 Here a member of the FSF and he seems that uses google+, [...] Have you considered contacting Gregory Benison to get an account on: <http://www.gcbhacks.dreamhosters.com/scheme-web-apps/schwordpress.cgi> (a Guile-Scheme-driven web log)? It is surely underdeveloped in comparison to the (other) established services, so maybe that's something you could play with (and hack on) concurrently w/ building community (newbies or otherwise). After all, the best-fit tools are the ones you see fit to craft. Of course, i don't know how Gregory Benison compares against the (other) established services regarding privacy and respecting user freedom, so that's something you'd want to clarify up front. FWIW, my experiences, though few, have been generally positive. Anyway, i think you would find this approach more satisfying, long term. Believe me, i know how it feels to push against the tide. :-D -- Thien-Thi Nguyen ..................................... GPG key: 4C807502 . NB: ttn at glug dot org is not me . . (and has not been since 2007 or so) . . ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES . ........... please send technical questions to mailing lists ........... [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-24 17:39 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2012-12-24 20:49 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-25 8:05 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-24 20:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Thien-Thi Nguyen; +Cc: Guile Mailing List On Mon, Dec 24, 2012 at 6:39 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote: > () zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> > () Mon, 24 Dec 2012 17:08:43 +0100 > > Here a member of the FSF and he seems that uses google+, [...] > > Have you considered contacting Gregory Benison to get an account on: > <http://www.gcbhacks.dreamhosters.com/scheme-web-apps/schwordpress.cgi> > (a Guile-Scheme-driven web log)? > > It is surely underdeveloped in comparison to the (other) established > services, so maybe that's something you could play with (and hack on) > concurrently w/ building community (newbies or otherwise). After all, > the best-fit tools are the ones you see fit to craft. > > Of course, i don't know how Gregory Benison compares against the (other) > established services regarding privacy and respecting user freedom, so > that's something you'd want to clarify up front. FWIW, my experiences, > though few, have been generally positive. > > Anyway, i think you would find this approach more satisfying, long term. > Believe me, i know how it feels to push against the tide. :-D > > -- > Thien-Thi Nguyen ..................................... GPG key: 4C807502 > . NB: ttn at glug dot org is not me . > . (and has not been since 2007 or so) . > . ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES . > ........... please send technical questions to mailing lists ........... Thank you very much. I didn't know Schwordpress. It seems like a very good option to create blogs. Try looking at the code. Right now notify that site in guile account in identi.ca and in Google+. If I write a blog I will try contact with him. In any case, I don't think I push against the tide. I could be wrong, but I I think quite people agrees with what I have said, but they don't say because it seems a flamewar's noob. I also must thank because everyone speak me with respect despite being a newbie and my horrendous English. I admire Stallman. How could a newbie not admire him?. I must also say that if I knew before what happened to Richard Stallman in the Brazil conference http://usemoslinux.blogspot.com/2012/12/el-dia-de-furia-de-richard-stallman-en.html then I had not sent the previous message. I just found out it now. But this only confirms what was said by Thomas Bushnell. In summary, the GNU image in social networks is very bad, and it nowadays can not be allowed. Thank you very much anew. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-24 20:49 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-25 8:05 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2012-12-25 9:55 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2012-12-25 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: Guile Mailing List [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1297 bytes --] () zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> () Mon, 24 Dec 2012 21:49:23 +0100 In any case, I don't think I push against the tide. And yet, you say: In summary, the GNU image in social networks is very bad, and it nowadays can not be allowed. ... which has the same sound, to my ears. What people think and say about GNU is the tide. What you or i can do about it is almost nothing. What you or i can do apart from it is almost infinite (until death :-D). If we choose to do something apart from it that affects it, hey, bonus! In sum, i am suggesting that if you play obliquely, your goals may be attained more easily (and in a more fun way) than w/ direct engagement. Why not let google+ alone, hack a few years elsewise, come back later and see what you /haven't/ missed? Two birds w/ one stone (two pigeons w/ one bean, in italian, _______, in spanish, ...), like they say. -- Thien-Thi Nguyen ..................................... GPG key: 4C807502 . NB: ttn at glug dot org is not me . . (and has not been since 2007 or so) . . ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES . ........... please send technical questions to mailing lists ........... [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 197 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-25 8:05 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2012-12-25 9:55 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-25 9:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Thien-Thi Nguyen; +Cc: Guile Mailing List On Tue, Dec 25, 2012 at 9:05 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org> wrote: > Two birds w/ one stone In Spanish is the same "Matar dos pájaros de un tiro" . Probably that phrase is universal :D. There isn't problem because knowledge of noobs don't worth even a slingshot. We are like candy birds: http://leenzuydgeest.deviantart.com/art/Blue-wildebeest-213435651 . ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 8:39 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 8:57 ` John Darrington @ 2012-12-18 9:35 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 10:47 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 9:36 ` Nala Ginrut 2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-18 9:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user Hi, zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis: > the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very > good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they > don't know come up with these solutions (Me here). I’m not saying that you should implement one, I’m saying that you should choose and promote one that addresses those concerns. There’s Status.Net for small messages, and there are free “social network” kind of things like Diaspora, though I don’t what their current status is. There may also be different kinds of tools we haven’t mentioned, like wikis. [...] > It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with communication in > social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's > because his eyes are closed. You seem to amalgamate “social network” and those centralized, privacy-threatening services. The phrase “social networks” really describes real-world social interactions. There are many tools that can be used to reify social networks on the net. Hackers often like email, IRC, and blogs. I gather that nowadays people may have different preferences. But whatever tool they choose, I think they must understand what impact it has on their freedom and privacy. Thanks, Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 9:35 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-18 10:47 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 10:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: guile-user On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote: > Hi, > > zx spectrumgomas <spectrumgomas@gmail.com> skribis: > >> the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a >> threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very >> good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they >> don't know come up with these solutions (Me here). > > I’m not saying that you should implement one, I’m saying that you should > choose and promote one that addresses those concerns. > > There’s Status.Net for small messages, and there are free “social > network” kind of things like Diaspora, though I don’t what their current > status is. There may also be different kinds of tools we haven’t > mentioned, like wikis. Diaspora was a good option. But I think that it is practically dead.I can not guarantee it. I'll try to see. If someone knows it is working well please comment it. >> It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with communication in >> social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's >> because his eyes are closed. > > You seem to amalgamate “social network” and those centralized, > privacy-threatening services. > > The phrase “social networks” really describes real-world social > interactions. There are many tools that can be used to reify social > networks on the net. Hackers often like email, IRC, and blogs. I > gather that nowadays people may have different preferences. > > But whatever tool they choose, I think they must understand what impact > it has on their freedom and privacy. > > Thanks, > Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 8:39 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 8:57 ` John Darrington 2012-12-18 9:35 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-18 9:36 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-18 10:35 ` zx spectrumgomas 2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-18 9:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: Ludovic Courtès, guile-user On Tue, 2012-12-18 at 09:39 +0100, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > As others wrote, please don’t advertise this service here. This one and > > similar services are a threat to privacy and freedom of speech, and in > > opposition with what we stand for. > > > > As you may already know, there are other tools that some of us regularly > > use: one is this mailing list, another one is IRC. > > > > If you think these tools aren’t suitable for your workflow, that is > > fine. In that case, I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a > > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users. “Building a > > community” should not imply giving up on essential freedoms. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > Ludo’. > > > the phrase "I urge you to come up with a solution that is not a > threat to the privacy, freedom, and autonomy of our users." looks very > good. The problem is that the real world is full of newbies and they > don't know come up with these solutions (Me here). > > In my opinion the solution is attract attention in social networks, > then get do a "gnu-rails" that mentioned here. And then resolve the > Planet's issue. As we say in Spain: You can't make a tortilla without > breaking eggs. I understand that your opinions are morally more > respectable than mine (No irony in this sentence, it is really what I > think). (irony #on) But in Spain it is customary to stay acquitted if > you confess your sins. > To my belief, confess sins then reform at once, which is the only way to make people stay acquitted. > It is clear that Guile has a serious problem with communication in > social networks, and if someone does not want to see it then it's > because his eyes are closed. > Take it easy, Guile doesn't against social-networks, but the wrong policy for propitiatory/privacy. You mentioned Racket users choose G+, but Racket is not GNU Racket, right? PS: I used to use G+, but I delete it from my smartphone wrathfully when I realize it uploaded many of my photos without any mention. Nowadays, I have to care about anything, especially software service. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 9:36 ` Nala Ginrut @ 2012-12-18 10:35 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 11:30 ` hellekin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 10:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nala Ginrut; +Cc: Ludovic Courtès, guile-user On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Nala Ginrut <nalaginrut@gmail.com> wrote: > To my belief, confess sins then reform at once, which is the only way to > make people stay acquitted. In Spain as good Catholics you can confess, reoffend and turn to confess. No problem. If it finally makes gnu-rails or Guile Planet, penance would be accomplished. > Take it easy, Guile doesn't against social-networks, but the wrong > policy for propitiatory/privacy. > You mentioned Racket users choose G+, but Racket is not GNU Racket, > right? > > PS: I used to use G+, but I delete it from my smartphone wrathfully when > I realize it uploaded many of my photos without any mention. > Nowadays, I have to care about anything, especially software service. I did not say that Guile is against social-networks. I say that Guile isn't using social networks and it is a mistake. And that's a fact. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 10:35 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 11:30 ` hellekin 2012-12-18 13:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: hellekin @ 2012-12-18 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1874 bytes --] On 12/18/2012 07:35 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > > I did not say that Guile is against social-networks. I say that Guile > isn't using social networks and it is a mistake. And that's a fact. > *** Ludovic said it well. Let me reiterate: "Some people conflate social networks, which are the aggregate of relationships that humans have, with online social network services such as Facebook and, arguably, G+" -- Howard Rheingold I used to post this on Google+, when I had a Google account, that is, before they changed their privacy policy to aggregate all their services under a single "Real Name" (TM?) If you're not aware of that, some people were quite pissed to discover that their "business handle" was mixed with their "personal handle" when that privacy policy entered in effect. Centralized social network services have an increasing tendency toward surveillance ; no, wait: that's their business model. They trade user profiles to marketers, and most, give them away to govern-mental agencies. More importantly, in a world of "the rule of law", where freedom of expression is (at least in the USA) protected by the Constitution, these services offer to their "business customers" an interface that allow them to entirely bypass Constitutional law, and censor whatever content they deem inappropriate, where they should, if that was posted in the public space, go to court, and win there. If you really like to use G+ for the sake of the audience (why not Facebook, then?), you could as well post short messages linking to blog articles or wiki pages *in the public space*, so that you take advantage of both worlds: contents in the public space, protected under a free documentation license, and use centralized social networking services such as Google+, Twitter, and Facebook, as mass-media, for announcement. == hk [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 900 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 11:30 ` hellekin @ 2012-12-18 13:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 13:59 ` hellekin 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 13:08 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hellekin; +Cc: guile-user On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> wrote: > If you're not aware of that, some people were quite pissed to discover > that their "business handle" was mixed with their "personal handle" when > that privacy policy entered in effect. Centralized social network > services have an increasing tendency toward surveillance ; no, wait: > that's their business model. They trade user profiles to marketers, and > most, give them away to govern-mental agencies. > > More importantly, in a world of "the rule of law", where freedom of > expression is (at least in the USA) protected by the Constitution, these > services offer to their "business customers" an interface that allow > them to entirely bypass Constitutional law, and censor whatever content > they deem inappropriate, where they should, if that was posted in the > public space, go to court, and win there. > > If you really like to use G+ for the sake of the audience (why not > Facebook, then?), you could as well post short messages linking to blog > articles or wiki pages *in the public space*, so that you take advantage > of both worlds: contents in the public space, protected under a free > documentation license, and use centralized social networking services > such as Google+, Twitter, and Facebook, as mass-media, for announcement. I do not consider Facebook neither more nor less evil than Google+ because I don't know well Facebook. Simply I've never used it because I believe that the profile of the people of Facebook is chatting with friends (I can be wrong). Neither I wrote in Google+ before. I just used twitter and identi.ca . why have I opened the account in google+ then? Because they have just created Communities. For a newbie is too presumptuous create an account guile GNU. I would not do this: https://twitter.com/gnuguile even if the account was free, because I have no sufficient knowledge to manage that account. It would be too honor :D. Another thing is that I think Guilers are wrong not managing an account like that. With google+'s account is different. This is not an honor because it is supposed to be community and then anyone can talk. I've just been faster (or nobody wanted to open it :D) The administration in my opinion in this case is totally different, it just is restricted to the rules of polite behavior. I think I can do it although probably other person would do it better because as you see I'm not exactly a phenomenon with English. If someone wants it would be perfect. I have to see if Diaspora has communities and it works well. Then I would open an account there. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 13:08 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 13:59 ` hellekin 2012-12-18 14:18 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: hellekin @ 2012-12-18 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3169 bytes --] On 12/18/2012 10:08 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > > > Facebook, Google+, Twitter. > > I think Guilers are wrong not managing an account like that. > > With google+'s account is different. > *** No it's not. Anyone can create an account anywhere, and then grant it to some authority figure, or share admin privilege with other people in a community. The question is not who is administering the account, but what does it imply for users to use that service. In any and all these cases, you're deflecting public activity (free software can be understood as a common good) to a private space (a privately-owned company, that DO NOT respect user's privacy to any acceptable level.) You're talking about convenience, while you should be thinking about freedom. You should be asking yourself: if I am free to represent or promote a free software on private ground, does that benefit others' freedom, or does that impede their freedom? Is that allowing users to participate without constraint? Is that nurturing the community? Think carefully. Attracting a mass of users would probably benefit the community, but moving the conversation to private grounds, where a private for-profit company can claim copyright on your contributions, and will track user behavior, certainly won't. That has nothing to do with being a newbie, or reaching a large "social network" (remember: the social network is made of human relationships, not corporate goodies), or confusing community and mass-media. I would, personally, accept the use of such services for *announcements*, that link to free, non-tracking, community-operated sites, such as this mailing-list, the IRC channel, Andi Wingo's blog, etc. I know that rms would simply say something in the lines: these services are tracking their users, and they're not free software, so don't use them. > I have to see if Diaspora has communities and it works well. Then I > would open an account there. > *** You could as well setup a Lorea seed, a StatusNet instance, a pump.io, or a Mediawiki. Oh, wait: LibrePlanet *is* a MediaWiki. (hint, hint) That said, I think you've got a point in saying that Guile would benefit from more attention. But I don't see *marketing* as a way to achieve it. Instead, the community should provide working examples of code that works, such as The Gimp, etc. and expose the differentiating features of Guile vs. other approaches. GNU projects' pages are usually terse and the Guile one is no exception. If you're so inclined, you could explain why you're choosing Guile over another solution, how you got started, what things were enlightening, and what others were difficult to understand, or counter-intuitive. Replying only this set of questions would make a terrific wiki page, and probably encourage more experienced Guile developers to help you on your learning path. Truth is, beyond the Blub Paradox[1], there's another one: the more experienced one becomes at programming, the more one tends to forget about how difficult it was to get there. == hk [1] http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html (lookup "The Blub Paradox") [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 900 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 13:59 ` hellekin @ 2012-12-18 14:18 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-18 14:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: hellekin; +Cc: guile-user On Tue, Dec 18, 2012 at 2:59 PM, hellekin <hellekin@gnu.org> wrote: > On 12/18/2012 10:08 AM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: >> >> >> Facebook, Google+, Twitter. >> >> I think Guilers are wrong not managing an account like that. >> >> With google+'s account is different. >> > *** No it's not. Anyone can create an account anywhere, and then grant > it to some authority figure, or share admin privilege with other people > in a community. The question is not who is administering the account, > but what does it imply for users to use that service. In any and all > these cases, you're deflecting public activity (free software can be > understood as a common good) to a private space (a privately-owned > company, that DO NOT respect user's privacy to any acceptable level.) > > You're talking about convenience, while you should be thinking about > freedom. You should be asking yourself: if I am free to represent or > promote a free software on private ground, does that benefit others' > freedom, or does that impede their freedom? Is that allowing users to > participate without constraint? Is that nurturing the community? > > Think carefully. Attracting a mass of users would probably benefit the > community, but moving the conversation to private grounds, where a > private for-profit company can claim copyright on your contributions, > and will track user behavior, certainly won't. > > That has nothing to do with being a newbie, or reaching a large "social > network" (remember: the social network is made of human relationships, > not corporate goodies), or confusing community and mass-media. > > I would, personally, accept the use of such services for > *announcements*, that link to free, non-tracking, community-operated > sites, such as this mailing-list, the IRC channel, Andi Wingo's blog, > etc. I know that rms would simply say something in the lines: these > services are tracking their users, and they're not free software, so > don't use them. > "With google+'s account is different" meant only to pretentiousness newbie level. Obviously thinking about freedom problem is the same if account is community or isn't. I will see Diaspora tonight or if someone want see it before it's perfect. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 0:23 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2012-12-17 22:36 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2012-12-18 23:36 ` David Thompson 2012-12-19 12:30 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo 4 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: David Thompson @ 2012-12-18 23:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guile-user On 12/16/2012 07:23 PM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: > I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! > https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es > Why not make a Guile subreddit on reddit.com? Reddit is a *very* popular site and (as far as I know) doesn't have the issues that G+ has. I see many of the FSF employees and other free software developers posting to r/linux and r/freesoftware. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-18 23:36 ` David Thompson @ 2012-12-19 12:30 ` zx spectrumgomas 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2012-12-19 12:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Thompson; +Cc: guile-user On Wed, Dec 19, 2012 at 12:36 AM, David Thompson <dthompson2@worcester.edu> wrote: > On 12/16/2012 07:23 PM, zx spectrumgomas wrote: >> >> I've created GNU Guile in google+ . Join to the community! >> https://plus.google.com/communities/109342732294319716184?hl=es >> > Why not make a Guile subreddit on reddit.com? Reddit is a *very* popular > site and (as far as I know) doesn't have the issues that G+ has. I see many > of the FSF employees and other free software developers posting to r/linux > and r/freesoftware. In my opinion this option is similar to blog's aggregator . It's a good idea but it lacks casual component of social networks. I think blog's aggregator is better idea. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2012-12-17 0:23 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2012-12-18 23:36 ` David Thompson @ 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo 2013-01-14 12:55 ` zx spectrumgomas ` (2 more replies) 4 siblings, 3 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Andy Wingo @ 2013-01-13 11:33 UTC (permalink / raw) To: zx spectrumgomas; +Cc: guile-user Hi, I'm catching up with mail and thought you might be interested in my thoughts. They're just my thoughts, the thoughts of one Guile hacker, and I don't represent Guile with them -- so please do make up your own minds. I basically agree with Ludo and Mark that proprietary, centralized social networks are bad for society, and are dangerous because they are attractive. I agree with Zx that there are many ways that Guile could be better as a community -- especially among new and younger Guilers, many of whom have "come of age" in an internet sense on social networks. I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there. Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed. If there are community needs that are not being met right now, we should try to identify them and find solutions. Is a blog aggregator the thing, or is it something else? I liked the idea of a Guile subreddit, though I don't know if it could get enough interest. Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow? Whatever we do, I think we should try to point people to the "primary" vehicles of discussion: the mailing lists and the IRC channel. Again, these are just opinions of one guy, take them as you will :) Cheers, Andy -- http://wingolog.org/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo @ 2013-01-14 12:55 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-16 2:00 ` Nikita Karetnikov 2013-01-27 18:59 ` Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+) hellekin (GNU Consensus) 2 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2013-01-14 12:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andy Wingo; +Cc: guile-user On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I'm catching up with mail and thought you might be interested in my > thoughts. They're just my thoughts, the thoughts of one Guile hacker, > and I don't represent Guile with them -- so please do make up your own > minds. > > I basically agree with Ludo and Mark that proprietary, centralized > social networks are bad for society, and are dangerous because they are > attractive. > > I agree with Zx that there are many ways that Guile could be better as a > community -- especially among new and younger Guilers, many of whom have > "come of age" in an internet sense on social networks. > > I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on > proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but > I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there. > Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on > these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed. > > If there are community needs that are not being met right now, we should > try to identify them and find solutions. Is a blog aggregator the > thing, or is it something else? I liked the idea of a Guile subreddit, > though I don't know if it could get enough interest. > > Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow? > > Whatever we do, I think we should try to point people to the "primary" > vehicles of discussion: the mailing lists and the IRC channel. > > Again, these are just opinions of one guy, take them as you will :) > > Cheers, > > Andy > -- > http://wingolog.org/ I agree entirely with your words. I wish engage newbie guilers (as me) who are already on proprietary social networks and I, too, think best solution is that someone manage accounts for Guile on these services and link them up to repost things. I think that repost things should be from a blog aggregator that should be created in www.gnu.org/software/guile/community.html . Conversations and questions say explicitly that must be in official Guile mailing lists (or subreddit?) As I said previously I created google+ community because I thought that it was the only unpretentious way for a noob. I agree that it is best solution as explained above. In summary, I think that some guile maintainer would have to create the blog aggregator and accounts should be created in identi.ca (already done), twitter (occupied account, it should be "GNU Guile begginers"), google+ and subreddit GNU Guile (I don't know but there is strong schemers community www.reddit.com/r/scheme (Read there Scheme implementations: /r/Racket only) . If someone expert Guiler wants to do this work it's perfect. If nobody wants to waste time then I can open accounts (passwords be sent to Guile maintainer) and manage it because I only would have to put links of blog agreggator and if some newbie guiler asks something I only would have to say: "Conversations and questions in official mailing lists, please" and for this I don't need MIT PhD. Even as a newbie forty years old I think I can do it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo 2013-01-14 12:55 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2013-01-16 2:00 ` Nikita Karetnikov 2013-01-16 10:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-16 11:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-27 18:59 ` Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+) hellekin (GNU Consensus) 2 siblings, 2 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Nikita Karetnikov @ 2013-01-16 2:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Andy Wingo; +Cc: guile-user [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1098 bytes --] Hi, This thread misses the point. Because there are two separate issues: 1. Is it OK to use non-free and centralized services? I'm not going to explain why it's not OK in detail. But I'd like to point out that if you use such a service, you encourage others to do the same. Here is an example: > I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on > proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but > I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there. > Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on > these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed. It's hard to change old habits that's why there /will/ be a community. Instead of discussing Guile there, we should explain why it's not ethical to use such networks. 2. How to promote Guile. It's important to identify why you want to promote Guile. For instance, if you want to educate newcomers, you can write a howto or improve the manual. Then you can share your work using ethical services and start a discussion. Nikita [-- Attachment #2: Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 835 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2013-01-16 2:00 ` Nikita Karetnikov @ 2013-01-16 10:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-16 11:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2013-01-16 10:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nikita Karetnikov; +Cc: guile-user On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 3:00 AM, Nikita Karetnikov <nikita@karetnikov.org> wrote: > 1. Is it OK to use non-free and centralized services? In my opinion yes because you are right morally, but you can't make a cake without breaking eggs: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-user/2012-12/msg00071.html > I'm not going to explain why it's not OK in detail. But I'd like to > point out that if you use such a service, you encourage others to do > the same. > Here is an example: > I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on > proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but > I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there. > Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on > these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed. I think that Andy Wingo's solution is ideal because it is a compromise between those who are using and not. And frankly, historically even among GNU Guile maintainers seems to be a division of opinion: Tom Lord -> Account not found Jim Blandy -> Account not found Maciej Stachowiak -> https://twitter.com/othermaciej Mikael Djurfeldt -> https://plus.google.com/106121839601553652922/posts Marius Vollmer -> https://plus.google.com/115061698758013340688/posts Ludovic Courtès -> For his comments on the thread it is clear that he is totally against the use of non-free and centralized services. Neil Jerram -> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/Neil/Jerram Andy Wingo -> https://twitter.com/andywingo Certainly, Vice President of Engineering and Products at Facebook , Greg Badros could also be Guile maintainer:http://www.sourceware.org/ml/guile/1999-11/msg00214.html http://www.linkedin.com/in/badros > It's hard to change old habits that's why there /will/ be a community. > Instead of discussing Guile there, we should explain why it's not > ethical to use such networks. In this you have a point, but if the account is used well, kind of announcement-oriented way, it can not encourage it. For example, https://twitter.com/sflc . > 2. How to promote Guile. > It's important to identify why you want to promote Guile. For instance, > if you want to educate newcomers, you can write a howto or improve the > manual. Then you can share your work using ethical services and start a > discussion. Overwhelming majority of teenagers newcomers will not find this documentation. I've been talking with people in social networks 30 years old who are studying haskell, clojure, racket ... and neither knew existed GNU Guile. For example Stallman when asked in interviews what their preferred language he says "Lisp", and no mention GNU Guile. He never does it, a very clear mistake. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+ 2013-01-16 2:00 ` Nikita Karetnikov 2013-01-16 10:36 ` zx spectrumgomas @ 2013-01-16 11:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 1 sibling, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2013-01-16 11:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nikita Karetnikov; +Cc: guile-user My case may be a good example. From the nearly 30 years old I have moved in Gnome circles (GNU in this environment is barely mentioned, or it is metioned that way http://soyeahdjango.com/post/40190256460/me-when-someone-uses-flask ) , I went to a couple of conferences of Stallman and I ate with him: http://www.galpon.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=744&g2_serialNumber=3 . And it turns out that I knew of the existence of GNU Guile by one person in twitter and pure chance 2 years ago. Forty years old. I know it is laughable but it is true. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+) 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo 2013-01-14 12:55 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-16 2:00 ` Nikita Karetnikov @ 2013-01-27 18:59 ` hellekin (GNU Consensus) 2013-01-27 21:21 ` Ludovic Courtès 2 siblings, 1 reply; 54+ messages in thread From: hellekin (GNU Consensus) @ 2013-01-27 18:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guile-user; +Cc: webmasters [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1369 bytes --] On 01/13/2013 08:33 AM, Andy Wingo wrote: > > Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow? > *** I think Guile's role in the GNU operating system is understated. It would be nice to provide a somewhat short page that describes, if possible visually, where Guile sits in the GNU OS, and a basic introduction on how to get started with extending one's program with Guile. Most of the contents of this introductory page would certainly come from existing documentation. The idea would be to make Guile a more visible element of the GNU, to raise developer awareness about it. I'd be happy to work with some of you Guile maintainers to define such a page. I'm not sure *where* such a page would best appear. It could sit in the existing Guile's web repository, and be linked from the gnu.org homepage. It could also become part of some new "Free Software Developer Guide" that describes the steps to create a program from scratch, or integrate an existing program in the GNU. I'm not aware of any such documentation that clarifies the specificities of the GNU project regarding program structure; I know there is documentation scattered around many manuals, but not a single, quite short introduction that would give developers an overview of the specificities of GNU packages, and the consistency of the system. == hk [-- Attachment #2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 900 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+) 2013-01-27 18:59 ` Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+) hellekin (GNU Consensus) @ 2013-01-27 21:21 ` Ludovic Courtès 0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2013-01-27 21:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guile-user Hi, "hellekin (GNU Consensus)" <hellekin@gnu.org> skribis: > GNU. I'm not aware of any such > documentation that clarifies the specificities of the GNU project > regarding program structure; I know there is documentation scattered > around many manuals, but not a single, quite short introduction that > would give developers an overview of the specificities of GNU packages, > and the consistency of the system. This page provides background info on the intended smallest common denominator of GNU packages: http://www.gnu.org/help/evaluation.html#whatmeans Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
* Re: GNU Guile community in google+
@ 2013-01-14 14:04 zx spectrumgomas
0 siblings, 0 replies; 54+ messages in thread
From: zx spectrumgomas @ 2013-01-14 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andy Wingo; +Cc: guile-user
On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM, Andy Wingo <wingo@pobox.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm catching up with mail and thought you might be interested in my
> thoughts. They're just my thoughts, the thoughts of one Guile hacker,
> and I don't represent Guile with them -- so please do make up your own
> minds.
>
> I basically agree with Ludo and Mark that proprietary, centralized
> social networks are bad for society, and are dangerous because they are
> attractive.
>
> I agree with Zx that there are many ways that Guile could be better as a
> community -- especially among new and younger Guilers, many of whom have
> "come of age" in an internet sense on social networks.
>
> I think that Guile probably could engage with users who are already on
> proprietary social networks, in a kind of announcement-oriented way, but
> I agree that we as a project shouldn't try to build a community there.
> Perhaps we could have someone manage "official" accounts for Guile on
> these services and link them up to re-post things from our news feed.
>
> If there are community needs that are not being met right now, we should
> try to identify them and find solutions. Is a blog aggregator the
> thing, or is it something else? I liked the idea of a Guile subreddit,
> though I don't know if it could get enough interest.
>
> Is there something that we need to build into gnu.org somehow?
>
> Whatever we do, I think we should try to point people to the "primary"
> vehicles of discussion: the mailing lists and the IRC channel.
>
> Again, these are just opinions of one guy, take them as you will :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
> --
> http://wingolog.org/
I agree entirely with your words.
I wish engage newbie guilers (as me) who are already on proprietary
social networks and I, too, think best solution is that someone manage
accounts for Guile on these services and link them up to repost
things. I think that repost things should be from a blog aggregator
that should be created in www.gnu.org/software/guile/community.html .
Conversations and questions say explicitly that must be in official
Guile IRC, mailing lists (or subreddit?)
As I said previously I created google+ community because I thought
that it was the only unpretentious way for a noob. I agree that it is
best solution as explained above.
In summary, I think that some guile maintainer would have to create
the blog aggregator and accounts should be created in identi.ca
(already done), twitter (occupied account, it should be "GNU Guile
begginers"), google+ and subreddit GNU Guile (I don't know but there
is strong schemers community www.reddit.com/r/scheme (Read there
Scheme implementations: /r/Racket only) .
If someone expert Guiler wants to do this work it's perfect. If nobody
wants to waste time then I can open accounts (passwords be sent to
Guile maintainer) and manage it because I only would have to put links
of blog agreggator and if some newbie guiler asks something I only
would have to say: "Conversations in IRC and questions in official mailing
lists, please" and for this I don't need MIT PhD. Even as a newbie
forty years old I think I can do it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 54+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-01-27 21:21 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 54+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2012-12-17 0:23 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 2:03 ` Greg Troxel 2012-12-17 2:18 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-17 6:36 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 7:02 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-17 8:21 ` John Darrington 2012-12-17 9:38 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-17 10:49 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 10:57 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 11:12 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 10:54 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 11:39 ` hellekin 2012-12-17 13:00 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 17:58 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-17 21:24 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 22:34 ` hellekin 2012-12-17 22:41 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 7:05 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 19:27 ` Mike Gran 2012-12-19 20:42 ` zx spectrumgomas [not found] ` <CAFCvokBZDzVR9-1iiXK-=nr0EpgS7LQ4puuDako05Y-1SzrSMA@mail.gmail.com> [not found] ` <878v8x2cuw.fsf@tines.lan> 2012-12-17 14:04 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-17 22:36 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 8:39 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 8:57 ` John Darrington 2012-12-18 10:14 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 14:11 ` Mark H Weaver 2012-12-18 14:18 ` Noah Lavine 2012-12-18 15:14 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 11:40 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-19 15:10 ` hellekin 2012-12-19 18:02 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-24 16:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-24 17:39 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2012-12-24 20:49 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-25 8:05 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen 2012-12-25 9:55 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 9:35 ` Ludovic Courtès 2012-12-18 10:47 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 9:36 ` Nala Ginrut 2012-12-18 10:35 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 11:30 ` hellekin 2012-12-18 13:08 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 13:59 ` hellekin 2012-12-18 14:18 ` zx spectrumgomas 2012-12-18 23:36 ` David Thompson 2012-12-19 12:30 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-13 11:33 ` Andy Wingo 2013-01-14 12:55 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-16 2:00 ` Nikita Karetnikov 2013-01-16 10:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-16 11:36 ` zx spectrumgomas 2013-01-27 18:59 ` Marketing Guile (was Re: GNU Guile community in google+) hellekin (GNU Consensus) 2013-01-27 21:21 ` Ludovic Courtès -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 2013-01-14 14:04 GNU Guile community in google+ zx spectrumgomas
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