From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Curiosity: Microkernel implemented in Guile ? Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2022 08:22:08 +0200 Message-ID: <87fsjrap6t.fsf@web.de> References: <8735fujyi4.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27854"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: mu4e 1.6.11; emacs 28.1 Cc: Nala Ginrut , Matias Jose Seco Baccanelli , Guile User To: Jean Abou Samra Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 26 08:56:55 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1o5MCU-00073t-Rp for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 08:56:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57044 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5MCT-0007Oe-Kl for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 02:56:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60506) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5MBl-0007AO-0g for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 02:56:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.12]:47567) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1o5MBh-00041A-1n for guile-user@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 02:56:08 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1656226560; bh=4tAqi950Rt2jGebPI+JZTnM63/sKbOLbzq476Ugcfyo=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:In-reply-to; b=pzjgjkIDJL2CZg1M8TApyk24bFKRg2MgOXAzqMpNDp+lDE9VTjbzxSGNyFuHtScqO 2ekaJOMxJ60T0nfC1EFHa3XGL/arfGSrfl5TNx+Pd4ZbfOgR+DOVb/00wpe7z0trSJ CxHFaBwKJA7JdXmUeVTXk/MafrOgu7D5DPlLgI/c= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Original-Received: from fluss ([80.136.30.232]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb105 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MP382-1oHYUO1fNk-00Pdpb; Sun, 26 Jun 2022 08:56:00 +0200 In-reply-to: X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:xJOZVehJcTFzGlVHt1NSjn0pIQl4NFta62ft7rCxUV5VSCWIgqZ B9cKf7aLZ29Xc6nb/V496+NEA+XsVr0/YgBO2M9c1vflgmrDBhPYoXXyXwoNxHWf14DY/eJ yl4J1vOwZTwQUDCDM5G9OqNxiHRLG1M/pNj43Gjjfeh+zbLyOSy9ruJ+gYX2215zNtqiK0N otqG0aVyiHU41mF7xZLfQ== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:KXR4/49FFlk=:yLwtFMzUQf8WUBO0s7AAzr JjVAxacTVHn8tlP+8Fo5bvqoW3SqEIjLe6miIjRgy63rxN6OgAxSksR38dNfCV0Uajsc8wjBK gWI9S9CWZ6dlKFmAchwhET+pp4FbFuw0hL0DqcYsFeH7GiGU9Z376ORHuRfZw/mDUINEt5hWN XPWqC1hxYN2ELWzr4Dj7WAcTkfLQph1/NvDRWJ+qB2HrXAztCkmOOeDkWxuXmbMaSRVO8jaFE PmiY+G+Wt2SpvjG7rDt7jjlth5PsmQp8NxYLydIdQmI51ro5neqjxccz4Jq9j56X8N2hbmzkp +Fv4x23a3JimJ3WNC7bV5DMf/TKU5RKqWrqxp3OaxuBB4ATtbT3MIya+efU9+EdxnDV9Oi3lT oc2zAxX//yx4tZ7k90byeMXE0sZ6QpdT0thP8suhR71wOfuMfsunmwZ7KOr992mHtS6foIIH0 EhI+h6m2qYl/2sd2M3aI+WOfGa0VbBQ4HEuGCXz7lztjAaf8hrkltrIiB9IXS52AY+Bo2+1ct trDWF91cAbEOa6oBlU7K348h36+uxdrsuxdDMLIYpsuHSLiGkcaT/2TUabijgAuMygSZvDIkh Gn1eQnrozOB9gqIhXQwDOAIR6ovBX95z5GAGkJphBr4mwAwiPWT4b3Yo0DDGcRbGFQpvCaj8i qAOH2QO8Q1qTTcuSiCfL4pilSHieXeEsjR57fGSPijtwtAPZoFf8nH6kvXCI1yy0cyoTkvF+0 IfhwkSxHNXVkub5PnOJMdSugoB1b4XTaDiLFrGD0kq56AQGlmK1mj9qm+Yf4OKoqQgpJ1JhZ Received-SPF: pass client-ip=212.227.17.12; envelope-from=arne_bab@web.de; helo=mout.web.de X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18339 Archived-At: --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jean Abou Samra writes: > (Also replying to Nala.) On the one hand, you have Guile without > compiled > bytecode, which is slow to run, and more importantly painful to use > because there are no error locations and often no function names in > error messages. On the other hand, Guile with bytecode takes compilation > time, which is an impediment in applications where it is merely being > used as a language that is practical to use for small extensions to an > existing program, without a need for optimized code. It forces you to > recompile even if you just touched one file, since otherwise it emits > ;;; messages about outdated .go files that create noise and/or affect > correctness. The compilation is impractical to set up when interfacing > with C if your main function is on the C side since compiling is started > from the Scheme side. There is no dependency tracking, so you need to > recompile everything whenever you change one file, which does not > encourage > quick experiments. Bytecode is fussy to integrate in installers: when > the user > unpacks an archive, you need to ensure that the .go files are unpacked > after the .scm files, otherwise Guile will consider them outdated. I > could list more =E2=80=A6 Please do! I=E2=80=99ve been trying to get a concrete list for issues hurti= ng Lilypond for a long time. To summarize what I understood so far (with notes): =2D The compilation-messages (I hate them; these also hurt when writing interactive utilities for the command-line, and I have too many half-working fixes in script files to still be comfortable; I think I once had a fix in configuration, but I lost it again =E2=80=94 or maybe I= had just hacked Guile) =2D No dependency tracking for the explicit compilation, so changes to Guile-code used elsewhere require an expensive re-compilation step, even though compile-times are just what you want to avoid with a scripting language =E2=87=92 auto-compilation should just work and be *silent*. Could this be fixed with a tool that recovers those dependencies from Scheme-files? Something like ./list-dependent-files.scm --start foo.scm bar.scm baz.scm moo.scm goo.scm =E2=87=92 bar.scm baz.scm > Sorry for not exactly bringing enthusiasm to this otherwise interesting > thread. Don=E2=80=99t worry. I asked, and I=E2=80=99m glad you answered. There migh= t be things that cannot be fixed, but I have not yet seen one here. Though I don=E2=80=99t want to give false hope: I am not a core developer, = so I cannot promise fast fixes. I can only promise that I will help pushing Guile more into the direction that Lilypond needs. Because for me, Lilypond is one of the most important tools that use Guile. I use several Guile-using tools nowadays, but the only one I could really not do without is Lilypond. Best wishes, Arne =2D-=20 Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein, ohne es zu merken. draketo.de --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQJEBAEBCAAuFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAmK4AvwQHGFybmVfYmFi QHdlYi5kZQAKCRAT741FJAPD6x7YEACPY0ro5dGHjaPEZvoaecsBulBt8qQkyadi 9CBSa8B2KoNWClH6LbkjuApkB5o6NEwAtKDAtW5r0vwoctRsk7kdB+95TKdv/zSm CZ2EuVpN1Rc8PiN7VkPnuucd8W9XUUNyrH4m1xL5Q6r70yIzwgq2elKCy3t/YeaF modzaLe+roH0sPJFUSiuHAPB9t0U51aU8IhdJ594Y1OdGrF4fQg87LmGzGfHmX9t KHIKqZ8gqXitXvXxpCUsS+ngKTvmqOAYGi2HRiNL7D1UY0mLR0wzUAx3+emsd3PL WlKkQykiHKUW8vRbg/f8Tis48yglXyjk24kje0zguq7hUVB4umdLewm/2GlJLJAr UQgp2MmkQSz/Im1o8gtFd/4A6eaoEkJepoietr9LIQhtz6xJF+wZu6l9RITW10KK 6dC1v73chQr6owh1c2Vi/foT0qk7l5D1jXMZ2y6Sa2VuSfRN3ezBFKd8wRdfoENZ ImpMYgmt3CCDu4duEB8m6NVSeLyb6DkB43bjv+HFSFXJaNtmzMMByLmFByAWQiDw j+i/YDOZjPnmHMTq7ivk4ALZcCC6B8Wq0lxFRr7otSOS8ulhh+xanGV5dpZO0/2W x5Y+8xUb9W0o1u0NgBk73ziG72OETyewy335NoNafHQMaWIHKho2SXFPTSEZhLM8 PlREHH+Gx4jEBAEBCAAuFiEE3Si95tmHXKvOSosd3M8NswvBBUgFAmK4Av8QHGFy bmVfYmFiQHdlYi5kZQAKCRDczw2zC8EFSL6LA/92vAtiLmCI0jlPtuo8Pfq0eMdJ xKqEqCv3dBEjwrtL5JBEhC3xilmui2s6xjmEz9kk0uifz4p8MTtAXAfWSY5Xw9iG Ac7Pfr+bF3RqT69NseXiVpMEOJUM/1EPC842NO0jQ7CuKJ+Yz9Ol9B3kTfWX1uZO AUhBPbVdq02jpetDAw== =4JXk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--