From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Blake Shaw Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: Newbie thoughts on Guile Hall + Guix Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2022 19:19:06 +0700 Message-ID: <87a6f1mtz3.fsf@nonconstructivism.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17081"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ognen Duzlevski , guile-user@gnu.org To: Vijay Marupudi Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 08 14:39:18 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nHQiD-0004BL-6A for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 14:39:17 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58992 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHQiB-0000nn-Iu for guile-user@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 08:39:16 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:43748) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHPSq-0004oY-4j for guile-user@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 07:19:20 -0500 Original-Received: from out0.migadu.com ([94.23.1.103]:48051) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nHPSn-0000s4-Hr for guile-user@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Feb 2022 07:19:19 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nonconstructivism.com; s=key1; t=1644322755; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding; bh=f4v8v+Tq/ukeQ7zoDJw8khsQ0LwX+TJgv4GThZmDfoM=; b=rUh1Ym3Pqhg4cCwa+hlnM5MSEZuMZ+rwccvwbxaI9UioFnt6drn0Rh0GinyaRWkteflThA j0a90a5c23Aom5dhHy2j+xsp8o9rE1QdidbyURr6Iuh/dETJDIOTdtOWks4i/cQSYYUMVv I4PvK8ojP2PLFpf0iu5RXXMSI5onSdI= Gcc: nnimap+imap.migadu.de:sent.2022 X-Report-Abuse: Please report any abuse attempt to abuse@migadu.com and include these headers. X-Migadu-Flow: FLOW_OUT X-Migadu-Auth-User: nonconstructivism.com Received-SPF: pass client-ip=94.23.1.103; envelope-from=blake@nonconstructivism.com; helo=out0.migadu.com X-Spam_score_int: -27 X-Spam_score: -2.8 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.8 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.lisp.guile.user:18032 Archived-At: Vijay Marupudi writes: > I don't think it's fair to say that using packages in Guile just as > easy/hard as other languages. Python / Javascript make this incredibly > easy, and their ecosystem is evidence for that success. Their package > managers have flaws, but they have benefits too, and those benefits > would be great for Guile. I would just like to tag onto this convo that I agree that its not fair to say that Guile is easy and will quickly bless those who endeavor to learn it with superpowers. My experience w/Racket was very smooth and I got working in it very quickly. I was a contracted to work on a project in Python a few months ago and without ever studying it I was able to start doing production work in it (ridiculous how intuitive it is, really). Before I started learning Guile I read Edwin Brady's book on Idris and found Idris much easier to get from start to end of small projects I was working on (because there is a well written book on it). While Guile has become my favorite programming language, it took me several months to learn how to navigate & figure out how to navigate the SRFIs, how to plan a program so that I can know what to expect along the way (what features I'll need to implement myself, etc) before I was able to get productive in it beyond the realm of Guix. And I think most would agree that Scheme is a less advanced language than Idris (I did some category theory in school so I have some intuition for the ideas, but still). And to be honest, I still hit plenty of road blocks. There were definitely some times where I was digging around trying to figure out how to do things and came across messages in the archives saying "its so easy you just do [vague hand wavy explanation]". And I found that quite frustrating, like there is an insularity meant to weed out the bad apples. And when this topic popped up on the guix list a few weeks ago some others expressed similar concerns, folks who are doing very impressive work. A programming language should never make programmers feel dumb -- it should make us feel empowered! [end rant, thanks for humoring me] -- “In girum imus nocte et consumimur igni”