ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Sebastian Tennant]

Hi thi,

 $ cd ttn-pers-scheme-0.50
 $ ./configure
 checking whether ln -s works... yes
 checking whether make sets $(MAKE)... yes
 checking for a BSD-compatible install... /usr/bin/install -c
 checking for install-info... install-info
 checking for guile... /usr/bin/guile
 checking for guile-config... /usr/bin/guile-config
 checking for guile-tools... /usr/bin/guile-tools
 checking if (guile-user) exports `identity'... yes
 checking if (guile-user) exports `close-all-fdes-except'... no
 configure: error: module (guile-user) does not export
 close-all-fdes-except; required

Something to do with dynamic linking and/or compiled code?  I know that
much from the reference manual, although 'guile-user' isn't in the index
(perhaps it should be)....

and 

  http://www.gnuvola.org/software/ttn-do/ttn-do.html.gz

is 'not found on this server'.

Happily swotting up on some ttn-pers-scheme-0.50 source code in the mean
time :-)

Seb

Re: ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() Sebastian Tennant <sebyte@smolny.plus.com>
() Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:20:15 +0200

    checking if (guile-user) exports `close-all-fdes-except'... no
    configure: error: module (guile-user) does not export
    close-all-fdes-except; required

   Something to do with dynamic linking and/or compiled code?  I know
   that much from the reference manual, although 'guile-user' isn't in
   the index (perhaps it should be)....

That func is available in Guile 1.4.x, an amicable fork of Guile:
http://www.gnuvola.org/software/guile/

I will amend that page's README blurb in the next week or so to include
my hopes about a merging of selected Guile 1.4.x features into Guile
latest.  Perhaps `close-all-fdes-except' will be one of those features,
but i doubt it...

     http://www.gnuvola.org/software/ttn-do/ttn-do.html.gz

   is 'not found on this server'.

Perhaps a transient error (NFS, blech).  Please try again.

   Happily swotting up on some ttn-pers-scheme-0.50 source code in the
   mean time :-)

That stuff is retired; frankly, i rolled the 0.50 release so that i
could do "make install uninstall" w/ it.  In info node "Future", there
are pointers to better-maintained (if not better-written, heh) code.
(Gist: ttn-do is where the churn is, now.)

thi

Re: ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Sebastian Tennant]

Quoth Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org>:
> () Sebastian Tennant <sebyte@smolny.plus.com>
> () Tue, 18 Mar 2008 22:20:15 +0200
>
>     checking if (guile-user) exports `close-all-fdes-except'... no
>     configure: error: module (guile-user) does not export
>     close-all-fdes-except; required
>
>    Something to do with dynamic linking and/or compiled code?  I know
>    that much from the reference manual, although 'guile-user' isn't in
>    the index (perhaps it should be)....
>
> That func is available in Guile 1.4.x, an amicable fork of Guile:
> http://www.gnuvola.org/software/guile/
                           
Hmm, I had overlooked this fork until now, assuming 1.4.x must be
old/out-of-date, but I'm starting to think 1.8.x is more out of date!

Having said that, a little diff magic on their respective procedure
indices shows that there are 1410 procedures common to both, 1286
procedures (inc.  SCM_*) exclusive to 1.8.x and 511 procedures (inc
GH_*) exclusive to 1.4.x.

Coming from an Emacs Lisp background, at least one of those 511
procedures, namely 'editing-buffer', I already miss.

"1.4.1.x, with x >= 108 is provided under the GNU GPL. See file
 COPYING. The special exception available in prior versions in the
 1.4.1.x series is no longer available."

What was this special exception and was it the reason for the fork?

> I will amend that page's README blurb in the next week or so to include
> my hopes about a merging of selected Guile 1.4.x features into Guile
> latest.  Perhaps `close-all-fdes-except' will be one of those features,
> but i doubt it...

Good luck.  I'd be very interested to know a little more about the
politics e.t.c.... perhaps off-list?.. even though you describe the fork
as amicable.

>      http://www.gnuvola.org/software/ttn-do/ttn-do.html.gz
>
>    is 'not found on this server'.
>
> Perhaps a transient error (NFS, blech).  Please try again.

Got it.

>    Happily swotting up on some ttn-pers-scheme-0.50 source code in the
>    mean time :-)
>
> That stuff is retired; frankly, i rolled the 0.50 release so that i
> could do "make install uninstall" w/ it.  In info node "Future", there
> are pointers to better-maintained (if not better-written, heh) code.
> (Gist: ttn-do is where the churn is, now.)

Understood.  I was interested in shellutils.scm which hasn't made it
into ttn-do.

Just tried building ttn-do.  Configure ran OK, but make borked:

 guile-tools c2x -o expat.x expat.c
 /usr/bin/guile-tools: no such program: /usr/share/guile/1.8/scripts/c2x

So I suppose it's a case once again of requiring 1.4.x rather than 1.8.x

It does seem a shame to me that your numerous contributions to the Guile
code base find themselves effectively sidelined to your own
distribution.

Seb

Re: ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() Sebastian Tennant <sebyte@smolny.plus.com>
() Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:08:37 +0200

   What was this special exception and was it the reason for the fork?

The fork was over deprecation of some libguile API elements, plus
administrative snafu.  The special exception can be seen in some Guile
releases in the top-level README:

|Guile License =========================================================
|
|The license of Guile consists of the GNU GPL plus a special statement
|giving blanket permission to link with non-free software.  This is the
|license statement as found in any individual file that it applies to:
|
| This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
| it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
| the Free Software Foundation; either version 2, or (at your option)
| any later version.
|
| This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
| but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
| MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
| GNU General Public License for more details.
|
| You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
| along with this software; see the file COPYING.  If not, write to
| the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 51 Franklin Street, Fifth Floor,
| Boston, MA 02110-1301, USA.
|
| As a special exception, the Free Software Foundation gives permission
| for additional uses of the text contained in its release of GUILE.
|
| The exception is that, if you link the GUILE library with other files
| to produce an executable, this does not by itself cause the
| resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public License.
| Your use of that executable is in no way restricted on account of
| linking the GUILE library code into it.
|
| This exception does not however invalidate any other reasons why
| the executable file might be covered by the GNU General Public License.
|
| This exception applies only to the code released by the
| Free Software Foundation under the name GUILE.  If you copy
| code from other Free Software Foundation releases into a copy of
| GUILE, as the General Public License permits, the exception does
| not apply to the code that you add in this way.  To avoid misleading
| anyone as to the status of such modified files, you must delete
| this exception notice from them.
|
| If you write modifications of your own for GUILE, it is your choice
| whether to permit this exception to apply to your modifications.
| If you do not wish that, delete this exception notice.

   Good luck.  I'd be very interested to know a little more about the
   politics e.t.c.... perhaps off-list?.. even though you describe the fork
   as amicable.

Here's my recollection of events: in 2000-2001, i was granted write
privs to the Guile cvs repo (after assigning past and future changes to
Guile to the FSF).  I did an uncontroversial (v.small change) 1.4.1
release and wanted to continue 1.4.x hacking on a (cvs) branch, w/ aims
to ease migration of existing code to the then-WIP libguile API changes.
In discussion on the emacs-devel list, i was not able to convince anyone
of the merit of this goal (the overall response was: "we are changing
the API, you must change your code").

I took umbrage at this and unsubscribed from emacs-devel, declaring
loyalty to the users (and OPC (other-people's code) that might not (be
able to) change), and announced intention of continuing to hack on 1.4.1
on a cvs branch anyway.  The cvs admin declared my actions a danger to
the project and revoked write privs.  Lacking that repo to save changes,
i started hacking locally and have been since.

So i see 1.4.x not really so much a fork as a long-lived non-local
branch.  Now that there is new Guile maintainership, i think it would be
a good idea to merge some of the good stuff from that branch into the
trunk.  Git supports branches much better than cvs, so there is now even
less reason for the shutout.

If anyone else recalls things differently, feel free and tell it like
you see / saw it.  My memory is often faulty and there is no doubt i
missed some details.

   Just tried building ttn-do.  Configure ran OK, but make borked:

    guile-tools c2x -o expat.x expat.c
    /usr/bin/guile-tools: no such program: /usr/share/guile/1.8/scripts/c2x

   So I suppose it's a case once again of requiring 1.4.x rather than 1.8.x

Yes.

   It does seem a shame to me that your numerous contributions to the
   Guile code base find themselves effectively sidelined to your own
   distribution.

I didn't whack my write privs, but i'm not ashamed of what i've done
since that event.  We all cope as best we can.

thi

Re: ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

Oops, in previous message, please do s/emacs-devel/guile-devel/g.

thi

Re: ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Sebastian Tennant]

Quoth Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@gnuvola.org>:
> () Sebastian Tennant <sebyte@smolny.plus.com>
> () Wed, 19 Mar 2008 13:08:37 +0200
>
>    What was this special exception and was it the reason for the fork?
>
> The fork was over deprecation of some libguile API elements, plus
> administrative snafu.  The special exception can be seen in some Guile
> releases in the top-level README:
>
> | The exception is that, if you link the GUILE library with other files
> | to produce an executable, this does not by itself cause the
> | resulting executable to be covered by the GNU General Public License.
> | Your use of that executable is in no way restricted on account of
> | linking the GUILE library code into it.

Very interesting.  Presumably this is/was to encourage use of Guile
across the board (i.e., in non-free environments too)?

>    Good luck.  I'd be very interested to know a little more about the
>    politics e.t.c.... perhaps off-list?.. even though you describe the fork
>    as amicable.
>
> Here's my recollection of events:

Thanks for taking the time to write this.  I can't say exactly _why_
it's nice to know how the situation came about, but it is, nevertheless.

> So i see 1.4.x not really so much a fork as a long-lived non-local
> branch.  Now that there is new Guile maintainership, i think it would be
> a good idea to merge some of the good stuff from that branch into the
> trunk.

I'd say so.  As someone who wants to use Guile for scripting
database-backed websites and the like, guile-pg and guile-www are two
essential components.  Fortunately your guile-www _does_ work with
guile-1.8.

> Git supports branches much better than cvs, so there is now even
> less reason for the shutout.

I hope the maintainers are listening.  Surely it's time to let bygones
be bygones and work for the common good of Guile and all who sail in
her.

> We all cope as best we can.

Indeed we do.  Thanks for your comprehensive and informative reply.

Sebastian

-- 
Emacs' AlsaPlayer - Music Without Jolts
http://sebyte.org/eap.html

Re: ttn-pers-scheme & ttn-do

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

() Sebastian Tennant <sebyte@smolny.plus.com>
() Sat, 12 Apr 2008 19:36:24 +0300

   > The special exception can be seen in some Guile
   > releases in the top-level README:
   >
   > | The exception is that, if you link the GUILE library with
   > | other files to produce an executable, this does not by
   > | itself cause the resulting executable to be covered by the
   > | GNU General Public License.  Your use of that executable is
   > | in no way restricted on account of linking the GUILE
   > | library code into it.

   Presumably this is/was to encourage use of Guile
   across the board (i.e., in non-free environments too)?

Yes, i believe so.

   Thanks for taking the time to write this.  I can't say exactly
   _why_ it's nice to know how the situation came about, but it
   is, nevertheless.

You're welcome.  It can be both pleasant and unpleasant to
re-re-re-reverbrate.  That's the nature of troughs and crests.

thi