From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Marko Rauhamaa Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.user Subject: Re: How to make GNU Guile more successful Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:34:47 +0200 Message-ID: <878tp967p4.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> References: <87lgtajpkc.fsf@web.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1487025331 31990 195.159.176.226 (13 Feb 2017 22:35:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2017 22:35:31 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1 (gnu/linux) Cc: "guile-user@gnu.org" To: Panicz Maciej Godek Original-X-From: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 13 23:35:27 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-user@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cdPDS-0007zq-HI for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 23:35:26 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59944 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdPDX-0003me-TD for guile-user@m.gmane.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:35:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40785) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdPCv-0003lY-3c for guile-user@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:34:54 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdPCt-0005EV-Sx for guile-user@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:34:53 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:1bc8:1a0:5384:7a2b:cbff:fe9f:e508] (port=51724 helo=pacujo.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1cdPCt-0005DY-KZ for guile-user@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Feb 2017 17:34:51 -0500 Original-Received: from elektro.pacujo.net (192.168.1.200) by elektro.pacujo.net; Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:34:48 +0200 Original-Received: by elektro.pacujo.net (sSMTP sendmail emulation); Tue, 14 Feb 2017 00:34:48 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Panicz Maciej Godek's message of "Mon, 13 Feb 2017 21:28:05 +0100") X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2001:1bc8:1a0:5384:7a2b:cbff:fe9f:e508 X-BeenThere: guile-user@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: General Guile related discussions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-user-bounces+guile-user=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "guile-user" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.user:13186 Archived-At: Panicz Maciej Godek : > I think that Python is popualr because you don't need Emacs to work > with it. You do need a special editor to work with Python, and emacs is perfect for it. Python is popular because it is a very traditional, dynamic, high-level programming language. It is conceptually very similar to Lisp (especially coupled with JSON). Definitely a gateway drug to Lisp. > The problem with Emacs is that it is that, although you probably can > do everything imaginable with it, it is difficult to approach. I never noticed that problem with emacs. Emacs is really the only reasonable way to type text. For example, when I enter text of any length to a web app, I first type it in emacs and then copy it to the web form. I have typed this message in emacs. > There's also this problem with Scheme that it is a very diverse > community with plethora of implementations. Scheme might have a chance as people's tastes evolve. Python is an example of that evolution. In my opinion one of the worst problems with Scheme is the Schemers: Scheme lovers are often far too enthusiastic with defining new, esoteric syntax instead of solving practical problems. Then, there's GOOPS, which in my opinion is simply an unnatural way to go about object-oriented programming. It does violence both to ordinary OO way of thinking and classic Lisp idioms. Continuations and multiple values are obstacles instead of enablers. BTW, Python seems to be suffering from quite many self-inflicted wounds: Python2/Python3 incompatibility, asyncio, type annotation, decorators, dunder jungle, meta-object programming, Unicode illusion. (Guile has fallen into that last trap as well, unfortunately.) In its eagerness to please everyone, Python might well be jumping the shark. There's one thing Python has over Guile, still: Python's system call support is outstanding. For example, I managed to implement a full-blown shell using Python. That was the first time I ever ran into terminal-related system calls, and Python had them all. Marko